The Case for Trading Sven
It's understandable that Flames fans are so protective of Sven Baertschi. He's the first "legitimate" prospect Calgary has had in ages. However, the reaction to a suggestion that Sven could be packaged with more for Jeff Carter was entirely hilarious.
What people often forget, is that while it's fine to get excited about and look forward to the future of young players with the team, prospects, at the end of the day, are still prospects. An NHL career is hardly a sure thing- remember Rob Schremp? 145 points in his last year in junior, and he's currently in the SEL after posting 20-34-54 in 114 games in the NHL between three teams.
So how do we value Sven Baertschi? At what points are we overvaluing and undervaluing him as a player? Is he a future superstar? A third line scrub? While either of these are certainly possible, they're near opposite ends of the same bell curve.
The fact is, SVEN is a fine player. But he's a fine player who's playing a 2+ ppg season after his draft year, dropping him out of the realm of lottery pick superstars who tend to do that, or near that, in their respective draft years. He's also nearly a year older than most players in his draft year, leaving him as more physically capable.
All of this is a long way to say Sven Baertschi is likely an 80 point player in his career year. This is hardly a bad thing, but he's certainly not the Jarome Iginla replacement superstar everyone seems to hope he'll be. And what's more likely is that Sven will end up a 60-70 point two way player. Again: that's entirely fine. But even then, that's still an optimistic look- a lot of things can go wrong in a player's development. Mitch Wahl suffered a nasty concussion and hasn't been the same since. Zach Bogosian broke his leg in a freak golf cart accident and hasn't been the same player since his rookie year.
At the end of the day, no prospect is a sure thing. These are 18 year old kids who aren't even done growing and filling out- there's plenty of room for error. If you can trade a prospect for a high end player who's on the right side of 30, you have to make that trade every time.
Of course, chances are that that trade won't be out there, or the Flames will miss out on it, and so on. Players rumored available that could fit the bill? Ryan Getzlaf, Jeff Carter, and Bobby Ryan.
And for the record, Jeff Carter has an injury history, but he's hardly Rick DiPietro.
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Good perspective
Good article Arik, the Flames fan base is extremely protective of Sven and understandably so but you are right. In a case of a proven player vs an unknown they should always be in consideration.
As far as Carter goes, I don’t think the Flames need to give up Sven to get Carter. Sven fell low in the draft and probably should have gone in the top ten. With the Jackets in a position of weakness and announcing he is on the market, rumors of him wanting a trade and stuff like this all over the internet. I think the Flames can get him on a bargain price.

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That picture is reason enough why I don’t want Carter coming to Calgary. He’ll steal all the womanz.
by Craig Fischer on Jan 30, 2012 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
And for the record, Jeff Carter has an injury history, but he’s hardly Rick DiPietro.
The commonality is the long contract.
Carter has broken his feet multiple times. He is well beyond the hairline fracture stage, he has had surgery on his right foot for it. Carter is fairly young to have taken multiple injuries to the same bones and has already shown a pattern for injury to them.
Once you break bones they become easier and easier to break. It is not like we can go Wolverine on Carter and dip his feet in adamantium.
This may be the real reason the Jackets are scrambling to move him. Who knows what their doctors said after the additional break in Columbus he took to start the season, the prognosis from a sports orthopedic surgeon may be very grim.
If you are to take the top five players in the NHL most likely to mirror the DiPietro disaster of long-term contract and risk for reoccurring injury Carter would certainly be in there…
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When you break a bone, a true break, not a fracture, the bone knits harder than before, making it harder break that bone, actually.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jan 30, 2012 10:00 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Really? Link?
I’ve heard stories of Karate guys who repeatedly break their feet to make them stronger but I’m no doctor. The bone may knit harder as you state at the crack but really the ultimate question to ask is does the person have weaker bones overall.
Neither one of us is privy to all the details of Carter’s medical records.
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by Mitch Smith on Jan 30, 2012 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
Oh i would bet he never fully recovered. I would also posit that if he drinks alot, that is a huge reason it hasn’t really healed. From 17 years of major Taekwondo injuries to my feet and excessive drinking.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jan 30, 2012 10:24 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
LOL – anyway glad to hear from someone in martial arts who knows for a fact. I heard of Karate guys breaking their feet on purpose but never really knew if it was myth or fact.
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First you say that Sven probably has at least one 80 point season in him, but could wind up as a 60-70 point two-way player. Then you imply that trading him for Carter would be a good way to get a proven high-end player in exchange for prospect, since prospects are always a gamble.
Jeff Carter has had exactly one 80 point season and hasn’t gotten more than 66 points in any other season despite being healthy for 80+ games in some of them. In his last four seasons he’s had 53, 84, 61, and 66 points, which makes that 84 stick out as a fluke. He’s also gotten just 17 points in 30 games this season. He’s a good player, no doubt, but is he really a proven high-end player?
Just for comparison, in his four seasons previous to when the Flames acquired him, Jokinen had point totals of 58, 89, 91, and 71. That stretch looks far better than anything Carter has ever put together in spite of the fact that Jokinen was a bit older. Of course, Jokinen was not the #1 center we were hoping for even though he has since turned into an excellent two-way player. With this in mind it is clear that Carter is not risk-free by any stretch of the imagination!
Jeff Carter is quite probably not even a Jokinen level talent and he looks like his career might be in a nose-dive. He’s as big a risk as Baertschi, if not bigger, and his upside isn’t as good because he’s a lot older. Quite frankly, I don’t think its irrational to value Sven more highly than Carter. These players are both risks, but Sven could have a lot more 60+ point seasons ahead of him than Carter does!
Of course, the real kicker is that Carter is a $5.2M cap hit through 2022! That is one lemon of a contract if he turns out to be a bust! In fact, it’s going to be a lemon of a contract in his later years even if he has some good years ahead of him! Imagine being in Scott Howson’s shoes right now. You picked up a proven 60-point/year player for a $5.2M cap hit per year on a contract that lasts for the next decade, and he puts up just 17 points in 30 games and then gets injured! Carter is going to be moved at any price. Howson doesn’t want him. If the Flames really want him, all they need to do is outbid the competition. That probably isn’t going to require trading Sven.
I personally do not think Sven should be included in a Carter trade. Now if we are talking Ryan or Getzlaf I agree with Arik – Sven should not be off limits in discussions regarding those players.
The bottom line is Carter has numerous outlying factors surrounding him which should significantly lower his value from the original Flyer trade. His fragile feet, his off-ice conduct, his monster contract, his NTC etc.
He may not be a full blown DiPietro yet but he sure has risk to be.
The only way a Carter trade happens is if the Flames ownership clears the worst case scenario that Carter turns out to completely bust and they are alright with eating the cost AND the Flames get a very good deal for Carter.
Carter is definitely a buyer beware player at this point and I have not read anywhere of anyone who is anywhere close as excited about getting him instead of Richards or Parise or the other fantasy dream acquisitions.
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Jeff Carter is quite probably not even a Jokinen level talent
Jeff Carter’s underlying numbers (comps/corsi/zone starts) are really, really good.
He scored 36 goals, 66 points while facing some of the toughest competition of any forward on the Flyers, getting the large majority of his starts in the Dzone and yet still driving the play in the right direction. He was Claude Giroux’s line mate, but based on results from previous years (and how good the Flyers were most of last season), there is no reason to believe that the two of them were not just an excellent pairing (as opposed to Giroux carrying Carter).
In other words, Jeff Carter was an absolutely top tier, elite two way forward who could serve as the bonafide No1, or at least as a 1A/B type, on any team in the NHL.
he looks like his career might be in a nose-dive
Sadly, you may very well be right here. Those injuries are very scary, and are probably the one thing preventing teams from barging down the Blue Jackets door with trade offers.
Amusing things in this comments section.
- Jokinen is an excellent 2- way player
- broken bones are weaker after proper recovery
- Sven has an 80 point season in him.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jan 30, 2012 10:03 AM PST via mobile reply actions
- broken bones are weaker after proper recovery
Has Carter had proper recovery? Anyway I may have made a mistake on that but it is still an injury pattern…
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by Mitch Smith on Jan 30, 2012 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
There are 28 bones in the human foot. You could technically “break your foot” 28 different ways.
I think i have broken mine, one foot or the other, 8 of those 28. And each one was different in recovery and ability to still utilize foot while broken.
Some of them took over a calender year to heal properly.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jan 30, 2012 11:04 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Jokinen has had some first-line duty, but he’s also spent a lot of this season tackling tougher competition so that the Iginla line can have cushier starts and easier competition. Despite this, he currently has just one less point than Iginla and is on track for a 60 point season. All that for less than half the cap-hit of Iginla. He also has the highest +/- rating of any Flames forward who has faced top six competition on a regular basis this season.
So yes, Jokinen is a excellent two-way center this season. If you find that amusing, I’ll have to chalk it up to whatever you’re smoking.
+/-: awful stat. iginla starts more in the dzone then jokinen does, plays similar comp yet still has a corsi rel 2 events/60 better then jokinen.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 30, 2012 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
Jokinen faces slightly tougher competition and gets slightly better zone starts (within <1%). With all the advanced stats out there, you’re going to find some that favor Iginla and some that favor Jokinen. Given that advanced stats say Babchuk is the second coming of Mark Messier, take all of that with a grain of salt. Also, I have no doubt that Iginla will produce more down the stretch. When the Captain gets hot, watch out!
However, the fact that we’re even comparing Jokinen to Iginla should tell you something. Some fans seem to harbor irrational hatred for the man, but he’s proven himself in all the ways that matter. I’m not convinced that Jeff Carter could walk into the Flames dressing room and produce more than Jokinen. In fact, I doubt he’ll even come close to performing as well for the remainder of this season no matter which team he plays for.
Carter is a smarter player than Jokinen and he can win a faceoff. That in my mind makes him a better player.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jan 30, 2012 12:44 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I would demand that a player who is signed for nearly double the cap hit for the next decade be a lot better, not just win more face offs and be “smarter”.
Warning – This is a very hostile Jokinen area of the internet : ) .
I am personally very happy with Joker’s play for his pay. He is a good value 2nd line C imo.
Carter’s long contract is certainly a flag but that is an ownership / dollar decision. Just like Cammy who is definitely overpaid. If the owners are ready to spend the dollars and absorb the loss in a worse case scenario, why not. If they are prepared for a buy-out 5 years from now or whatever that is their decision.
On Carter it is hard to argue that he does not immediately improve the Flames in a key area AND he is not that old at 27.
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I am one of the rare souls here that likes Joker and defends him but even I will back up Carter > Joker. That isn’t too hard a case to make.
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And he probably has more true sniper ability in his big toe than the ol’ Sex Panther does as a whole.
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by TheBurnward on Jan 31, 2012 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
Small Correction
It was Erik Johnson that you are referring to as Zach Bogosian. Johnson ran himself over with the golf cart, not Bogosian. Zach is still a sure-fire stud, imo.
While the risks of youngsters listed here are true and noteworthy, there are concurrent rewards to keeping and developing a true high level talent. That being the capped ELC contract (assuming that lasts through to the next CBA) and the potential to keep the guy for 7-8 years, which should technically include his peak production seasons.
I’m not sure where to place Baertschi yet. He’s older than his draft class, but he’s crushing things right now too. He looked by eye to be by far the most developed 18-year old at a Flames camp since I started covering the team. It’s possible he’ll be a guy who can come in a provide value on his ELC immediately which is great in a capped league.
That said, I have no idea if he’ll ever be Carter good. Or if Carter will ever be Carter good again, for that matter – he’s kinda fallen off a cliff this year.
Calgary is too much of an old/young split to make good use of Carter’s peak years; Carter may end up becoming an injury case; Carter is on a huge contract; prime-aged players are incredibly expensive to acquire.
All of that combined means that trading a blue chip prospect for him is probably a bad idea. Especially when that prospect is of closer age to the next wave of potential core players for the Flames. I know we love to pooh-pooh all of those zany gamblers out there who have love affairs with prospects to an excessive extent, but the fact remains that there is such a thing as playing it too safe. If someone gives you a thousand dollars to invest and tells you that you have ten years to make your fortune with it, you don’t just throw it all into Microsoft stocks. Yes, you’re guaranteed to get some return, but the stock is so expensive that your overall reward won’t pan out in such a short period of time compared to the potential of something a little riskier.
That’s a decent analogy, although to be fair I don’t know who the Flames core players are once this batch ages to obsolesce. Calgary’s major problem is they have no one to pass the torch to once the Iginla era passes (something we are witnessing right now, actually).
The Canucks fininshed 11th a few years ago. It was the final season for Naslund and Morrison on Vancouver. The org let them walk and passed the team off to Kesler and the Sedins resulting in a rapid ascension.
The huge gap in the Flames roster is the one between the big boys now and whoever is supposed to assume that mantle in a year or two (or should be doing so now for that matter).
by Kent Wilson on Jan 31, 2012 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed. And I look back at the Phaneuf/Regehr deals and really wish they would have focused on getting solid players in that age bracket. Damn.
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
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by TheBurnward on Jan 31, 2012 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
I think the big lessons (hopefully) learned from the Phaneuf and Regehr trades were:
1. Don’t piss away blue chip talent for mediocre spare parts even if you need the parts.
2. Don’t piss away blue chip talent in order to move bad contracts (especially if they are going to wind up in the KHL anyways).
At this point, there’s no way the Flames should be packaging a player with Stajan in order to move him. It would be great if he went to Russia, but it would be better to hang onto him than to waste talent in order to move him. Who knows, maybe if Feaster can weather the stuck-storm long enough Stajan will get back to a point where another team will at least pick him up off of waivers.
All Feaster really needs to do in order to return the Flames to playoff contention is to focus on winning every trade and not wasting assets. In the short term, that means moving more pending UFA’s before the post-season when and where possible even if the Flames are still in the playoff race by the trade deadline. The Morrison trade wasn’t exactly a team-changer, but it was a good example of getting something for nothing.
At least with the Flames schedule being what it is, we’ll have a pretty good idea if the team is a buyer or seller by the trade deadline.
Be fair here, Carter is hardly “mediocre” and the trade would have to be a win in and of itself but if you are not prepared to at least start with a 1st round pick for a 1st line C you aren’t being rational.
Carter at the right price is a risk worth taking given the Flames mandate.
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