Flames Burning up Barter Town - Is Jeff Carter next?
The Flames have been wheeling and dealing at a rapid rate since 2012 broke, already closing three four trades before February has even hit.
January 6th with Tampa Bay - Blair Jones for Brendan Mikkelson.
January 12th with Montreal - Rene Bourque, Patrick Holland and a 2nd round pick (2013) for Mike Cammalleri, Karri Ramo and a 5th round pick (2012).
January 27th with Chicago - Brendan Morrison for Brian Connelly.
(Update) - January 30th with Winnipeg - John Negrin for Akim Aliu
With public confirmation that Jeff Carter is "100 percent available" it is hard to imagine that Feaster is not at the very least in on the talks. The Flames have probably been in on every single conversation for a #1 C for the last decade. Carter's stock has declined in the last year but he still is fairly seen as a #1 C. TSN via Darren Dreger have also weighed in on the legitimacy of Carter being available.
While some are mystified with the Flames moves, it is those who see trades in terms of black and white. A team can only be a seller or a buyer. Feaster's moves since taking the GM seat have been a combination of both. If one can straddle the two worlds of partial rebuild and moves for the 'now' at the same time the Flames direction has a method.
So can Feaster close a deal for Jeff Carter? Should he? What are the pros and cons of Carter? What will the cost be?
Pros
(1) 1st Line Center - For the Flames Carter still represents their holy grail, their long sought after 1st line C. He is a 1st line C in Calgary, he may not be on many NHL teams but he qualifies in Calgary.
Olli Jokinen, even with a very good season going, is not properly viewed as a 1st line C. He does not even want the role and has made recent comments about how he loves the challenge of being a two-way C.
The Flames simply refuses to lay down and drop to the basement so Carter fits a long standing requirement to be competitive and is still fairly young having just turned 27 on January 1st.
(2) Potential Bargain - Carter's stock has dropped significantly since the original Flyers trade. The Blue Jackets have clearly lost the original trade at this point and are likely to move him in a deal that allows them to just save a bit of face.
The Jackets ownership is also likely motivated to tighten up the money belt.
Carter put them on the hook for 52+ million in the next 10 years, they have got to want to get that off their books. The Blue Jackets are not a team on the relocation rumor mill and their ownership appears to be committed to their market but at the same time they do not have money to burn like the Flames, Rangers and Leafs.
Columbus media already highlights for all to see that Carter may be damaged goods and tough to move. This means the Flames or any team should expect a bargain price. The fact the Blue Jackets have sounded the Carter on the block horn around the NHL is even further evidence of that.
Could they be so strongly motivated to move Carter that they may even eat a contract like Stajan back with the right combination of young players added in?
Cons / Risks
Oh let me count the risks
(1) The Contract - Carter is on a monster contract that runs all the way to 2022. 10 years and on top of it he has a NTC that kicks in next season. While this does result in a fairly friendly cap hit of only 5.27 million, assuming he returns to his Flyer form, the risk if he turns out to be mailing it in is enormous.
He will hold all the cards as a player and he could be the kiss of death for the Flames or the answer to their long standing woes at the C position. The analysis is a coin toss at this point.
(2) Injury History - Almost as bad as a player with a poor compete level is an injury prone player on a long term contract (Hello Rick DiPietro). Carter has started to look like he is made of glass.
He missed the Cup finals with the Flyers in 2009-10 and has a history of taking foot and knee injuries. Returning this year he recently took a separated shoulder injury on January 10th. 2012. Any playoff team looking to acquire him at the deadline has to doubt he will be ready to contribute right away at a 100%.
This works for the Flames though as they would likely bid on him regardless.
(3) Off-Ice Concerns - The Flyers Dry Island program which Mike Richards and Jeff Carter refused to participate in had many speculating that drinking or off-ice issues was part of the reason Paul Holmgren pulled the big trades last off-season and shocked the entire NHL. Many at the time were mocking Holmgren but few do today with the return he scored for his young - "Flyers Gone Wild Boys".
On a young immature player this is an acceptable risk IF the contract is short but it isn't. If Jeff Carter is a young millionaire with more interest in chasing puck bunnies than the puck on the ice. Prefers twirling the ice in his drink than skating on it he is simply a player to avoid.
Analysis
This is no Brad Richards who the Flames chased in the off-season. This is a young player who has proven he can potentially be a #1 C but has lacked the consistency and has a lot of questions surrounding him both regarding his health and his off-ice conduct.
Going after Carter is not as clear cut as going after Brad Richards.
The 'For Carter' Camp
Those who will endorse the move will be the right now crowd. In a worse case scenario the wealthy owners of the Flames can bury Carter in the long-run if he starts showing up drunk to work or simply becomes a wash-out. After all it is only money to them and they have plenty of it.
Their commitment to putting the best product possible on the ice for Flames fans will be reenforced.
Carter has the potential to truly turn the team right around. Turn them back into a playoff team and the forward ranks would certainly be complete or close to it with good depth on the 3rd and 4th lines.
The 'Against Carter' Camp
Make no mistake, Jeff Carter even as a depreciated asset will cost the Flames a 1st round pick plus much more. The Jackets will clearly want youth and those who advocate a rebuild Oiler style will be pulling their hair out BUT the Flames have said repeatedly that they want to be competitive, if it happens no one should be surprised.
This crowd will also certainly come unhinged to potentially see a 1st round pick and young players like Irving, Brodie, Ramo, Backlund, Sven potentially on the plane out. The Jackets will not trade Carter, who himself is only 27 for players older than him.
What will the Cost Be?
The Flames will have to move some salary to make this work. The Flames should be a little leery of Carter because his contract makes him a long term risk. His injury history is also a big warning. The man is no Jarome Iginla with an impeccable character record BUT he is still a legitimate #1 Center but hopefully at a lower price that what Columbus paid for him to the Flyers.
If the Jackets are willing to move him for a reasonable discount the Flames given their woes at Center can not be expected to say no if the price is right.
So what are possible deals?
I would expect Stajan or David Moss to go mainly for cap balance in the trade.
Stajan despite being overpaid also has that front loaded contract. His Cap hit may be 3.5 but the dollars paid next season and the one after are only 2.5 million. Calgary has a glut of 2nd / 3rd line C and if given the chance Stajan could land the 2nd line and certainly the 3rd line C position in Columbus.
Stajan is probably better than he's showed in Flames colors. His PP time has completely dried up in town and his underlying numbers, while mediocre, also weren't terrible last year as well. He could be a capable enough middle-rotation on most NHL teams. ~ Kent Wilson, Flames Nation (September 28th, 2011
David Moss is another possible piece that could work for the Jackets although due to his injury he is unlikely to go.
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A 1st round pick would certainly be included. I don't see how the trade could be made without it. Irving may qualify for this instead and young goaltending is certainly of interest to the Jackets.
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If Irving is not part of the deal Karri Ramo could be. Ramo has the press of being one of the best KHL goalies at the moment and if Irving isn't the one to go then Ramo very well could suffice, if included with a 1st round pick.
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In conclusion the assets required to get even a depreciated Jeff Carter would be enourmous on a Flames team that is lacking in young depth. To give up a good portion of the few significant youth they have for a player who has an injury history, potential off-ice issues and be married to him for a decade has to have some Flames fans drawing a deep breath.
Personally this kind of a package is made tolerable only if Stajan can be dumped in the deal. Something that may not even be possible.
Will the trade happen? It depends how badly the Jackets want to move Carter and how much of the precious few good young assets the Flames want to give up.
These are not trading partners made in heaven.
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Carter for any combination of Stajan + 1 pick + Ramo or Irving would be fine with me. Your odds of getting a player as good as Carter even in the first round are low.
That deal doesn’t happen though. Why the hell would CBJ make it? You’d probably see something like SVEN+1st+Irving, which I’d be totally fine with.
CBJ is not the first team to get stuck with a player they have to move. These are the bad trades for one team and great trades for another. The Sens sending Heatley to the Sharks. The Oilers sending Pronger to the Ducks.
When an organization is put in a position where they are almost forced to trade a player their value drops dramatically. CBJ sounding the horn on Carter being available is them trying to get better offers from anyone. I doubt they like what they have heard on the phone over the last few months.
If Feaster offered Sven, a 1st and Irving I think Howson couldn’t jam the paper in the fax machine fast enough to get it done. I personally would not do it. Carter could easily be a much worst repeat of Joker from Phx.
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Gio, Backlund and a 1st….minimum.
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
"Storm coming? Hatchet coming!"
That’s more than CBJ gave up to get him.
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 29, 2012 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
Am I missing something? The Flyers traded Carter for a 1st (top ten) and Voracek also a 1st (top ten) plus a third but we are willing to move 3 first round picks for Carter in Ariks case or 2 first round picks and one of our top 2 D in Burn’s case.
I don’t agree. Carter has depreciated and the horn has sounded he is on the market all over the NHL. I don’t think there is a huge market although some teams could be strong takers.
Although it may be wishful thinking to think Stajan is included, fair enough. A deal that included a first, Irving or Ramo and Brodie should be enough. This addresses the Jackets needs for a young puck moving D man in Brodie, a young G with starter potential and a decent first rounder likely in the top half of the draft.
The Cap will be an issue to be fiddled with there but perhaps an expensive player like Sarich can be moved for a 2nd round pick to address. I think you guys are taking the old valuation rate on Carter from last season.
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lucky to get
a 4th for Sarich I think Mitch.
I really cant see Columbus settling for any deal that does not include Sven, and in that case I’d say no way. Sven appears to be the best prospect in the Flames system since Iggy and the best pick by the Flames since Theo.
If you can make the deal without Sven and Brodie and limit it to one 1st rounder then I would be interested.
by PrairieStew on Jan 28, 2012 10:14 PM PST up reply actions
Amen. I am jacked about Sven.
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
"Storm coming? Hatchet coming!"
by TheBurnward on Jan 29, 2012 12:13 AM PST up reply actions
I do not endorse moving Sven, even in a deal for Carter. That’s just my personal take. Backlund sure but not Sven.
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I don’t know, I think Sarich has picked up his game recently. I think he will get more than a 4th at the deadline. Playoff teams always want depth D men and Sarich is a big hitter who will fit the bill for a lot of teams out there…
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I see what you are saying, however Columbus isn’t going to give him away. And a package of Ramo/Irving, Stajan and a 1st would not even be close to fair return.
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
"Storm coming? Hatchet coming!"
by TheBurnward on Jan 29, 2012 12:21 AM PST up reply actions
Again it may be wishful thinking to move Stajan but I don’t think it is impossible. The right deal could get him included.
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Oh and at least Olli had a strong injury free history. Very sturdy player, getting Carter the guy could be another DiPietro.
I don’t think his real time value today is as high. He may go in the off-season and not by the deadline but the Jackets will be in desperation mode to move him at that point and could take even more of a bath.
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Let’s not forget…Carter has scored 40+ before…and is generally a lock to score 30+. Not too many guys can claim that.
"You said you didn't give a f#%k about hockey. And I never saw someone say that before..."
"Storm coming? Hatchet coming!"
The same type of thinking was in play with Joker. Joker still has maintained his 50 point seasons but goal production dropped.
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Great write up Mitch, but I think you hit the nail on the head with Risk #3. To me that’s reason enough to look past this trade and into something else. This team doesn’t need the distraction.
If a Carter deal is made I expect it to be a bargain. If it is something along the lines of what Arik or Burn suggested I personally will not be too thrilled.
There is a lot of reasons to be cautious and I remember all the hoopla when the original Jokinen trade was made from Phx, I’m sure we all do, but look how that ended up. Carter due to his contract and injury history could make the Joker situation look like a walk in the park in comparison.
Definitely a proceed with caution scenario and also with the full worst case scenario given to Flames management that he may have to drop to re-entry waivers and they eat his cost for a period of time in the future if he isn’t working…
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Too high risk
I would be horribly disappointed if we trade for Carter. I understand the potential he could bring, but with such a huge contract it is too much to gamble on given his decline and questionable off-ice behaviour. Right now, we need our young players to develop and we need above-all to KEEP OUR PICKS AND DO SOMETHING WITH THEM. For years I have watched us trade away first-rounders for veterans and it has left us with very few legitimate prospects and a lot of overpaid old players. Let’s keep the picks and start stocking the farm.
carter’s a completely different player then jokinen. he’s younger then joker was, has had more consistent underlying numbers and plays a more two-way game.
injuries are a concern, yes-but the likelihood that anyone in the flames system will be as good as he is right now is 0.
So what is your trade scenario for Carter Justin? Just curious, I may be undervaluing him due to injuries and contract length… What trade for Carter makes you feel good about getting him, everything considered…
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by Mitch Smith on Jan 29, 2012 10:35 PM PST up reply actions
1st, howse and a 4th I think I’d be fine with.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 30, 2012 6:57 AM PST up reply actions
You gotta think CBJ wants a goalie as well. Do you part with Irving? Ramo?
I think Carter will cost the farm.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jan 30, 2012 7:54 AM PST via mobile reply actions
there is 0 chance carter costs more then what he was given up for in september. irving, a 1st and a 4th would do it easy.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 30, 2012 8:00 AM PST up reply actions
What he was given up for was 8th overall pick (about equal value to SVEN) and Jakub Voracek, a great young player who plays a two way game (4th on Philly in Corsi Rel) who I’d say is about equal in value to Backlund (who I’d rather not see traded). I’d estimate Calgary’s 1st this year will be 16-18 if the trade happens, and Irving is still an unknown quantity at this point despite a good AHL season and some good starts in the NHL
Ok...
I live and breathe the C of red. I honestly believe that if we can move Stajan, a 1st Round pick, and either Ramo or Irving for Carter, it could be a potentially GREAT trade for Calgary… But as we’ve seen before, sometimes ‘Great’ trades (i.e. moving Phaneuf) do the exact opposite their supposed to.
The NTC doesn’t matter because I don’t think Carter would want to stay here if he was having as horrible a year in the next few, as he has had in Columbus this year.
I say take the risk, let’s try to get Iggy a cup.























