Thursdays Hot Coals and Anton Babchuk
Flames Coals:
The Jay Feaster Metamorphosis or Feastaforphosis, as I like to call it, has been noticed by the Hockey Writers in Coal 1 where the Flames new drafting methodology gets a once over. Flames prospects have gotten write ups in distant foreign hockey markets which usually spend their time obsessing about their own teams. Little blurb here on Ryan Howse in the Montreal Gazette Coal 2. The Toronto Sun gives separate articles to Leland Irving Coal 3 and John Gaudreau Coal 4. (Yes I know Vicky Hall is a Calgary Herald writer but still...)
NHL Sparks:
Arbitration time has kicked in. Here is a nice little list of players this year who may have a third party decide their salary unless they come to terms beforehand. In cases where the team elected arbitration Shea Weber and Zack Parise of the Nashville Predators and New Jersey Devils respectively are headed to the table.
In the player elected arbitration category Anaheim Ducks - Dan Sexton / Buffalo Sabres - Andrej Sekera / Carolina Hurricanes - Derek Joslin / Chicago Blackhawks - Chris Campoli, Viktor Stalberg / Colorado Avalanche - Kevin Porter, Ryan Wilson / Edmonton Oilers - Andrew Cogliano / Los Angeles Kings - Alec Martinez, Brad Richardson / Montreal Canadiens - Josh Gorges / Nashville Predators - Sergei Kostitsyn / New Jersey Devils - Mark Fraser / New York Islanders - Blake Comeau / New York Rangers - Brian Boyle, Ryan Callahan, Brandon Dubinsky, Michael Sauer / Phoenix Coyotes - Lauri Korpikoski / Tampa Bay Lightning - Teddy Purcell / Vancouver Canucks - Jannik Hansen / Winnipeg Jets - Blake Wheeler.
All linked for your quick reviewing pleasure. Not a whole lot for the Flames to be interested in this year but maybe next year if they end up on one year deals? Discuss as you see fit although it is looking quite a ways ahead in time.
And onto a little defense of the offensive defense man with Anton Babchuk in a starring role after the jump.
More Regehr Reflection
Just to liven up the off-season I am going to do something taboo here on M&G and question our Godfathers over on Flames Nation. I read Flames Nation all the time, you should too. The analysis from Wilson and Cleave is top rate. Lambert has gotten so negative that sometimes I wonder if he is an undercover Oiler troll but regardless, great work over there for the most part and happy to plug them here.
Wilson and Cleave rarely get questioned because their analysis is pretty tight. But tight does not mean absolutely right.
Now I have heard rumors about this thing called Math which seems to have a growing influence on the interpretation of the game. I've taken a rookie contribution position on Arctic Ice, not only because I am a fan of the Jets and full of Jets memories but also to expose myself to some of the best at it (Gabe and Ben and continue to watch Ryan do his thing). Hopefully through osmosis I will one day be able to do a bit of it myself eventually.
Usually I just sit back with a beer and watch the game and get an overall impression.
I didn't have a brain implosion over the Regehr trade (although I was disappointed like everyone else) because based on the last couple seasons I saw a decline in his game. He will still be top 4 in Buffalo and will contribute a significant leadership factor, so I don't think the Flames win the trade by any stretch, they have rolled the dice HUGE on Chris Butler who may or may not even earn a top 4 spot.
I've watched Regehr for his whole career. He was never fast to start with but he was the slowest I have ever seen him last year. I saw Jay Bouwmeester covering for him, where in the past it was Regehr covering for whoever he was paired with. I'm not sure if the decline in Regehr's game, was that obvious unless you drink from the fountain of advanced statistics, so I am not sure if many outside of Ryan, who plays oracle here to a tee and nailed down the future with a prophet like post in this old M&G one last December.
Ryan was using that thing called Math to come to his conclusion while I was just drinking beer and going hmmmm, Robyn is having an off game again. After saying that one too many times I was at the same place as Ryan.
Lastly, one last option for the Flames is to find a team with a lot of cap space and give up Regehr for a package of draft picks or possibly just as incentive for that team to also take on a cap-killer contract like Ales Kotalik.
Regehr's Real Value
One reason that it might be time to trade Regehr is that his perceived value may be higher than his actual value at this point. Reggie has built a reputation around the league as a physically tough, shutdown defenseman. For years he lived up to this reputation... Ryan P (M&G - Dec 1, 2010)
(Read the rest of it if you can Flames fans, it will make you feel a little better about the Regehr trade.)
Jay Bouwmeester was defensively very good last year, as Ryan shows here again and I think all Flames fans should be grateful on one level that Regehr was paired with him. Jbo takes a lot of heat but really it isn't justified from the defensive perspective as Ryan illustrates.
Now onto Anton Babchuk
First, Feaster from the Flames NHL site on the Babchuk signing. Mandatory viewing here. This is only a general link you have to go down to the July 4, 2011 interview lower down for the interview.
Couple take away quotes
What I like about Anton is that he is a confident guy, he is confident in his own ability and he didn't want to do a three year deal because he believes he is going to be a 50 point guy. If we were to do a three-year term he feels he is going to be underpaid.
(Jay Feaster)
No one in creation may have confidence in Anton Babchuk but the kid has confidence in himself and thinks he can improve, this is important and critics be damned.
I think the reason why we could get it done at that number (2.5million) is because Anton really liked it here in Calgary. He liked the team, he liked his teammates, he wanted to be here and that was a big factor that he wanted to be here. [Anton Babchuk] told me during our exit meeting he said that he has never been around a better bunch of guys, a better leadership group and never felt better as part of a group than he did here [with the Calgary Flames]
(Jay Feaster)
And then I read this from Mr. Lambert, just so not on the mark. Darryl Sutter did not do his due diligence on Erixon but Erixon is the exception not the rule. Should have had him signed long ago and calling Calgary the new Edmonton is, well, not worthy of comment but it probably made Oiler fans feel good about themselves.
Babchuk signed at a discount to play in Calgary, as did Tanguay, as did Glencross and if you think otherwise I don't think you are in tune with the FA market. Personally, I think the kid could have got himself at least 3 million if he simply went to the highest bidder and yes that would have been another over-pay on a long list of FA overpays.
Yet despite value, short term and a good attitude illustrated by being very positive about the team, the city and a desire and personal belief that he will improve his game the kid hits everyone's or most everyone's shit list.
*Sigh*
Wilson and Cleave of Flames Nation write excellent criticisms of the signing and you might want to give them a gander now, if you haven't already.
The real world isn't black (all negative) and white (all positive). They raise several correct criticisms that I do not disagree with. If anything my point from here on out is that solid analysis is shades of grey, not black and white but I think they are both too much to the dark grey, while I am definitely on the lighter side of grey for Mr. Babchuk.
Yes - Anton Babchuk is a sheltered D-man. Yes - he is a 5-6 pairing. Yes - putting him on the PK is not a good idea. Yes his corset isn't pretty enough, I mean Corsi, and he only scores average on the funwick scale, guess he isn't the life of the party. Isn't this typical for an offensive Defense man though?
Babchuk has a bomb of a shot and it is accurate. Surprisingly accurate. Something Wilson acknowledges at the end of his article in the just too brief "pro side" of it. Wilson is ready to predict that Babchuk will freeze at a 5-6 D pairing but will not give him the benefit of the doubt that he will also maintain his elite D man shooting %? Yes regression on Babchuk's shot is possible but so is Babchuk's evolution into a legitimate 4th D man then.
Why so glum?
My issue with Wilson, simply put, 9 paragraphs on the Cons of Babchuk and only one sexy picture and 2 paragraphs on the Pros. There should have been at least two sexy pictures and two positive paragraphs.
There is more upside here. This is a good signing in value, term and role for Anton even if he must remain sheltered and used in a limited way. The kid has the potential to pop 35-50 points and make the Flames PP something to be reckoned with. That alone makes this signing solid.
Cleave acknowledges the value of the signing and his lack of concern about the NMC / NTC, something I agree with on both points as well. But Cleave is still a little down on the signing despite acknowledging a lot of the positive aspects. Good value, short term, PP injection.
That inability to help the club do the work that defencemen are ultimately essential for is really at the heart of my objection to keeping Babchuk.
Robert Cleave (Flames Nation - July 6, 2011)
This is a fair point on Babchuk but this is a question of perspective. I don't think anyone is seeing or anticipating Babchuk to fill the role of all-around defenseman. There may be some long-shot optimism that he will crack the 4th D spot but this is not the absolute plan, nor does it need to be.
Babchuk is an offensive Defensemen in the same spirit of the 4th forward tag that offensive D sometimes get tagged with. He pinches, he shoots, he scores and he looks lost in his own zone and needs to be sheltered.
Conclusion:
My point is that there is a Darryl Sutter hangover going on here, even from some of the best Flames bloggers in the business. Sutter was very much about Defense. Flames fans are so used to a solid top 4 D that the fact the team has left this mold is extremely uncomfortable for a lot of fans.
Not me, the team has a new GM, he is going to transform the team. This is the fun part as a fan.
Darryl Sutter prioritized Defense and a team of hitters and grinders. Jay Feaster does not. Jay Feaster is putting less focus on Defense. This seems to have created a lot of confusion for some who are still looking at the Flames from the same mold of Sutter expectations, oh Ryan Lambert, you jester you.
Feaster knows exactly what he is doing and he hinted at it in his first interviews when he was hired last July as Assistant GM.
He was brought in to challenge Darryl Sutter's views, he openly commented when he was first hired that he saw the future of the NHL to be about speed and skill, not so much about defence and goaltending. He quickly caught himself in that interview, probably realizing how Kipper was viewed in the fan base, that he felt goaltending was important but still you had enough of a hint where Jay Feaster saw the future of the NHL game.
A desire to go after an aging Brad Richards should again further drive home the reality that the Flames under Feaster will be an offensive team, not a defensive one.
He is drafting players based on skill, not size. He may or may not obtain a legitimate top 4 D man and yes Joe Corvo is a good D man and would fit into the top 4 but I don't think Jay is interested in older D men. I don't think he really prioritizes the D anywhere near as much as Darryl Sutter did.
Everyone talks about how the Flames have had nothing for prospects for years. Well, remember Anton Stralman who they threw away for nothing but a 3rd round pick, he seems to have done pretty well cracking the top 4 in Columbus.
Dare I remind Flames fans of Keith Aulie. Fact is the Flames have been thick on D prospects, we may get a surprise on how quickly they transition. After just a single year Aulie ended last season on the top 2 pairing with Dion Phaneuf over in Toronto. My point, the D prospects may be a lot better than some may think and after years of fans wanting to see youth I think we will be seeing it this year.
Time to adjust perspective, the Flames are changing and expecting moves similar to ones that Sutter would have made isn't the right perspective. Feaster very well may go into the season as is and keep his options open with the Cap Space to pick up an extra D man only if blatantly needed.
I see no problem with the Babchuk signing, it was a solid one and I also think the D prospects are going to surprise. They may be much further ahead on NHL ice than is typical because of the Sutter obsession with developing them for so long.
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Nice article Mitch. A couple questions/comments:
1.) Depending on who actually goes to arbitration – do you see teams walking away from any of the awards this year like Chicago did last year with Niemi? I would be looking at the two Chicago awards and the NYR hearings for that potential, although I think the NYR ones get done before a hearing.
2.) In regards to Regehr, I note the following quote from Ryan’s article " The return needs to be high draft picks or solid NHL-ready prospects" I guess Butler is an NHL ready player, but Byron doesn’t really fill either. It would appear that the league no longer over-valued him. We also had to throw in a 2nd to get rid of Kotalik, so it isn’t really fair to say that we managed to tag Kotalik’s downside to Regehr’s upside.
3.) Babchuk, this is a pretty even analysis. I just think if his upside on the PP overcomes his downside at EV (hopefully by improvements by Babchuk) this could work out. It isn’t a bad bet in any event.
(1) No I don’t see teams walking away from the amounts and as you mentioned they often get settled early. I see the player elected arbitration list though as an indication of a player who is not on ideal terms with the team. I put it up as a sort of very early list of potential UFAs that may be up for grabs next year. I would not be surprised to see a lot of those listed go onto 1 year contracts and from that it gives us as Flames fans some players to consider for next year and we will be shopping next year – that is for sure.
(2) I can across Ryan’s old article accidentally and I still thought his theme was on the mark. Regehr continued to detrioate from that point last season and I felt he ended very weakly last season, probably due to playing injured, in an ideal sceanrio I think if he had been traded last off-season that would have brought the best return but alas.
(3) On Babchuk, absolutely no doubt he has to be sheltered and evolve to be considered for a top 4 role but his PP contributions are key. I could not find the stats but after Babchuk came aboard the Flames PP took off. They were a top 5 offensive team and had a top 5 PP in 2011. He was part of the improvement in the PP.
I personally am very positive about the signing, I know that isn’t the norm but that is why I had to write a small novel about it today. This is the direction I think we should expect to see from Feaster, a skeleton D crew and more and more loading up for offensive firepower.
Feaster is not going to focus on D and I think Flames fans should adjust to that change in perspective now otherwise they are going to be wringing their hands next season. I think we can legitimately question this decision of his, especially given Kipper’s decline over the last couple years as well.
But like it or not, it is how I read the Flames landscape…
For what it is worth, the Flames were 46 goals in 17 games before Babchuck arrived and 195 in the 65 games after, going from 2.7 to 3.0 goals per game. A pretty fair achievement although sample size etc. applies. The powerplay stuff is more complicated to work out, but the sample size thing would be even more apropos.
I am ok with a more offensive looking team. I thought one of the major downfalls of Calgary over the last couple of years was that we had too much money invested in players that were of little help in actually putting the puck in the other teams net. No matter how good your defense is, you are going to give up shots and goals. You need to be able to respond and it always felt like when Calgary was behind they never quite had the imagination or skill to come back.
Cue someone showing me how Calgary’s goal scoring and corsi% was exactly the same when trailing as every other team…still what I thought I saw and I don’t have time to double check it.
The best I could find for splits is pre and post all-star splits which does not ideally illustrate the change in PP and offensive production.
The Flames took off End of Dec and these strong results in Jan are merged in with the artricious results of 2010. They Flames also faltered badly in the last 10 games.
Regardless here is a link that illustrates the increase in the Flames offensive production pre and post all-star game.
For the record, I thought the Flames could have got more from Regehr. I think moving him was the right thing to do at this point, while his value was still relatively high. However, I think Feaster lost some leverage once the Burns deal was done with SJ since he no longer had 2 bidders. The early indications were Luke Adam and a 1st round pick, that would have been fantastic.
Trading him was the right move, but the return was a bit underwhelming. I’m hoping Byron & Butler surprise the hell out of us.
Ryan Popilchak
Matchsticks & Gasoline, Artic Ice Hockey, &Hockey Prospectus. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated
Yeah I agree with Ryan here. It is one thing to recognize that Regehr should be traded (which most of us recognized as our best piece to try and get youger and better) and quite another to trade him for an underwhelming package.
It really reminds me of the Phaneuf trade. Most of us were okay with the trade itself but what a crap package (even at the time) we got for him. AND giving up Aulie – thanks for the reminder Mitch.
This was a great article. I for one share your opinions on Reggie & Babchuk, and I thank you for putting them out there in a very well-thought-out post.
I’ve been playing and watching hockey for nearly 35 years now, and I also subscribe to the “no math” school of hockey analysis – but I also subscribe to the “drink beer all summer and play yourself back into shape in October” training philosophy :)
Flamestuff: collecting Calgary Flames memorabilia since 1980; blogging about it since 2011.
Thx on the article but I am not anti-math, I am just upfront with the fact that I have not personally unpacked all the foundations they are using. At this point I have read enough and seen enough articles to know they are tight. When engineers do math I pay attention.
Reminds me of a joke. There is this guy who doesn’t know what 1+1 is. So he goes around the University and he heads to three departments to ask the question. First he goes over to Engineering and asks one of engineers. Do you know what 1+1 equals?
The engineer looks at him with a WTF look on his face and goes. IT’S 2, you dumbass, GTF out of here.
The guy then goes over to the Social Sciences and asks the same question, what is 1+1 where the social scientist pauses and thinks carefully and goes “Well, 19 times out 20 assuming a standard deviation of +/- x, it will be 2.”
The guy still is not convinced so he heads over to the Business department where he ends up talking to an economist. He asks him, so what is 1+1 and the economist pauses, raises his eyebrows and looks to his left and looks to his right and leans forward and whispers in the guy’s ear “What do you want it to be?”
My former life was all about the third school of thought BUT when engineers talk math I pay attention. When financial analysts talk math I am very skeptical and that served me well. Engineers are building bridges that don’t fall down, people in finance are creating artificial bubble markets to rake in millions for themselves, big difference in how the two of them use math.
The advanced statistics articles that circulate on some SBNation sites is tight. High quality stuff but it is above the head of a lot of readers, myself included at this point. I initially was glazing up and clicking away but I am getting into it more.
Ha! I happen to be an engineer – thankfully for society, however, I’m not one of the engineers who are designing bridges.
Here’s a joke about optimists and pessimists (and engineers): we all know about the old “half a glass of water” – optimists say it is half full, pessimists say it is half empty. Well, engineers say the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
I found that your article looked at the bright side of the recent Flames moves (I interpreted it as optimistic, even), and found it a refreshing contrast to all the pessimism of the prominent Flames bloggers that you mention.
Lastly, I do apologize for implying that you are anti-math. I guess I get enough math every day in my job that I don’t want it to interfere too much with my enjoyment of hockey. I am firmly entrenched in the “sit back with a beer and watch the game and get an overall impression” philosophy. So, yes, people like myself and Don Cherry might be the last ones who skip over most of the “new” hockey math and go with our own conclusions based on our own observations of the game. I fully appreciate that the advanced metrics are very important and are an accurate way to analyze the game we love – it’s just not for me.
Flamestuff: collecting Calgary Flames memorabilia since 1980; blogging about it since 2011.
Yeah – I don’t want to lose that relaxed enjoyment of the game / fan of the team no matter what element either – kool-aid or not. And you definitely interpreted my article correctly as optimistic, I want that to be my trademark. Always looking for the upside.
I think we need both perspectives, just a question of balance and diversity for readers.
We can look at the Flames as being below half the West (Kings / Sharks / Wings / Hawks / Nucks) or we can look at them being above (the Oilers / Avs / Blues / Wild / Stars) – personally I think Phx as it sits now has gotten a lot weaker as have the Preds and the Flames for next season will be duking it out with them and the Ducks / Jackets for those last three spots.
Just going to focus on next season and I am, as you note optimistic about it.
If there’s something we continue to relearn every year, it’s that no matter the talent on the Preds roster, they find a way to win. The west looks incredibly hard to prognosticate (I actually like the Blues and Preds to make the playoffs this year) but it should at the very least make for an exciting season for Flames and western conference teams alike.
by Craig Fischer on Jul 8, 2011 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
























