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(Re)Build Me Up: A M&G Roundtable


With the trade deadline nearing, and the Flames position getting increasingly confusing, Hayley, Ryan and myself decided to sit down and write out what we saw for the Flames in the future. Whether rebuilding is right for the club, how much, who goes where, and so on.  Follow the jump and give us your opinions too.

Star-divide

 

1. Do the Flames rebuild and to what extent?

 

Ryan: Most Flames fans would like to hop in the Hot Tub Time Machine and zip back to the Red Mile in 2004.

Unfortunately that run is long gone despite team management’s plans to replicate that team with a

group of muckers and grinders.

 

Unfortunately, that’s the situation the team finds itself in right now. A team full of guys who are suited

for lines 2 through 4 with more of a checking bent to their game than a skilful one. Want evidence? The

Flames as a team have 52.7% Fenwick ratio at evens with the score close. That’s stellar. Unfortunately,

they sport a PDO of 979 in those same situations and a 0.500 record to go with it.

 

That PDO could mean one of 2 things; the Flames have a very poor skill level (shooting & saving) or

very poor luck. Having watched a fair number of games myself and reading through most of the reader

comments here on M&G, I’m willing to estimate that it’s more a skill deficit than just bad bounces.

 

With that in mind, the Flames have to rebuild to some extent, but don't have to completely blow it up.

The squad need some young offensive talent, especially at forward. We also need to have a specific

strategy for working 1-3 young players into the lineup, like with Backlund this year. It does no good to

have a stocked farm system if there is no way to work the youngsters into bonafide NHL players.

 

Hayley: I think they’re pretty much in a position where they have to, to some degree, and Sutter’s resignation/firing was the first indication of that. They’re not a fourteenth-place team,

but they’re not a playoff team either at the moment, and that mediocre standing is almost

worse than being outright terrible. It’s not as if there is absolutely nothing to work with

on the team’s roster; players brought up through the organization like David Moss,

Mikael Backlund, Mark Giordano, and Adam Pardy have showed promise this season

while Tim Jackman, Curtis Glencross, Brendan Morrison, and even Cory Sarich have

proved useful at times over the course of the past 49 games.

 

The fact of the matter is, Jarome Iginla and other veterans are slowing down and this

team lacks both a legitimate power vs. power line as well as elite offensive talent, and

it shows in games against the better teams in the league. They can no longer compete

with the likes of Detroit and Vancouver. The Flames essentially have an opportunity to

quit while they’re ahead here. Unlike teams like Washington, Pittsburgh, and Chicago

who languished at the bottom of their respective conferences under bad management for

years, the Flames have only been out of the playoffs for a season and a half. With some

interesting prospects like T.J. Brodie and Mitch Wahl coming up through the system in

the next few years, this team has some of the pieces, but not enough; a rebuild, partial or

otherwise, represents an opportunity to acquire the assets the Flames are lacking and Jay

Feaster or whomever else is in charge has to take advantage of that.

 

Arik: Do the Flames rebuild? Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. The question is- will they do so willingly or just continue to slide until they've become the Islanders of Canada? I see there being two types of rebuilds- controlled and unintentional. If you see a rebuild being necessary far enough in the future, you can plan on it, work towards it, start stocking draft picks, sell off the older high end players while they're still good, and generally prepare for a few years of losing and teaching younger players the ins and outs of the game.

 

Unfortunately, for many teams, that rarely happens. What you most often see is a team refusing to acknowledge its decline, refusing to sell off top players and one day waking up at the bottom of the standings and no first round draft picks to show for it, having been sold for declining veterans in the hope that they'll "spark" the team. Fortunately, Calgary has not hit that point yet- but it's coming up in the rear-view mirror pretty quickly.

 

2. If trades were easy, which players do you want to see leave the team?

 

Ryan: First, let me start by saying I know trades aren’t easy, especially when you’re trying to dump salary

at the deadline. But to me, that’s exactly what the Flames need to do. Sitting at 14th in the Western

Conference and owning the 3rd worst goal differential doesn’t sound like a recipe for making the

playoffs. If that’s the case, it’s time to start thinking about next year and the $56m committed to only

17 players.

 

The only way to make that more manageable is to start dumping salaries. The Flames have a number of

pieces that might be enticing to teams trying to make a cup run.

 

The top 3 players in this category to me are Alex Kotalik ($3m), Olli Jokinen ($3m) and Robyn Regehr

($4m). Kotalik might be appealing to someone who wants him on the powerplay, Jokinen for scoring

depth and Regehr as a solid addition to another team’s blueline. The group of them would save the

Flames $10 million in cap hit next year and gives some flexibility to remake the team.

 

Of those three, Regehr is the only one we could expect a good return from. If we could get a blue chip

offensive prospect for him, Feaster should pull the trigger in a hurry. My reasons for moving Regehr wer

laid out a few months ago. If Kotalik or Jokinen can be moved for even a 3rd round pick I would do it.

The Flames need flexibility more than either of these two players.

 

 

The player I would like to see moved is Kiprusoff. I know he has been the backbone of this team since

2004, but he’s not nearly the same player that won the Vezina and he takes $5.8m worth of cap space.

He would be the hardest to move since his contract runs through 2014. If you don’t believe me about

his declining skills, look at these save percentages:

 

2007-08  - 0.906

 

2008-09 - 0.903

 

2009-10  - 0.920

 

2010-11  - 0.897

 

Looking at that, would you say 09-10 was an aberration or indicative of his proper skill level the last 4

years? At this point, I’d say his true skill level is closer to that of a 0.900-0.905 which is sub-par. The

only thing that might make Kipper tradeable is his reputation, not his actual performance. Either way,

it’s time for the organization to turn the page.

 

The main reason I’d like to see so much cap room cleared is so the Flames can wade into free agency

next summer and find themselves a forward that can match up against the opposition’s best.

 

 

Hayley: The short answer is, of course, anyone without a no-trade or no-movement clause, but I

think the Flames still have to be selective in terms of what players they could potentially

move despite their seemingly desperate position. This is by no means a "fire sale,"

and I don’t necessarily agree with moving players like Moss, Glencross, or Bourque

just because you can. That’s not to say that the likes of Steve Staios, Cory Sarich, Olli

Jokinen, Niklas Hagman, Ales Kotalik, and Matt Stajan shouldn’t be moved for whatever

Feaster or his incumbent can attain, but like I said above, there are still some useful

players on this roster.

 

If you believe the recent rumours that Robyn Regehr has agreed to waive his no-trade

clause, than he should almost certainly be moved as well. As for the more contentious

players like Miikka Kiprusoff, Jarome Iginla, and perhaps Jay Bouwmeester, well…we’ll

cross that bridge when we come to it. At the moment, I don’t want to see any of the

aforementioned players go, but that could change depending on the potential return and

the team’s position as the trade deadline approaches and at the Draft in the summer.

 

Arik: This will not be a popular opinion: the best as well as oldest players on the team.

 

Jarome Iginla: That is the cornerstone to any rebuild. He's clearly been on a decline and looks disinterested in games 50% of the time. Right now- he could easily fetch a blue-chip prospect and a first, or some similar return from a team looking to contend. By the time any rebuild is fully underway, Iginla will be too old to contribute in the way we'd like, especially given what a return from trading him would be able to contribute.

 

Robyn Regehr: Provided the return is better than Tomas Fleischmann (a first, or a decent prospect wouldn't be too out of the question), should go. Again, by the time a new team is ready to compete, he'll be a shadow of his current playing ability.

Jay Bouwmeester: This one could go either way really- a lot of teams won't want a player with the price tag of $6.5M, but a team farther ahead in a rebuild with cap space could make a great offer for the defenseman. This one really just depends on whether or not a return is there- and that'll be a mystery until it happens or doesn't happen.

 

Cory Sarich: Old, slow, takes bad penalties. Is there any reason not to trade him?

 

Miika Kiprusoff: Kipper has clearly been on a decline over the past few years (as Ryan demonstrated), with last year as the bizarre anomaly. There's a good chance the Flames front office could capitalize on that and ship him off for the usual early pick or prospect.

 

Nik Hagman: Another member of the club of guys who will be too old to contribute to after a rebuild, ship him off at the deadline and hope you get a minor prospect who develops into a third line player or something similar.

 

Rene Bourque: Sent to an Eastern Conference bubble team- Bourque could net a relatively great return. Think a team like Atlanta- right at the edges of the playoff picture, looking to make it for the first time in a while, and most importantly, lacking secondary scoring. Relative to what he currently brings to the Flames, Bourque could bring the best return.

3. Who are the players we absolutely should be considering "the core" of the club?

 

Ryan: For the most part, with a team that has underperformed this badly, I think Feaster has to consider offers for anyone on the roster if he gets a good return for them. I don’t think we have anyone that is untouchable. That said, here are the players I would be mentally pencilling in to the 2011-12 lineup:

 

Mark Giordano – in my mind he’s been the Flames best player this season and at $4m per year is playing up to his new contract already.

 

Jay Bouwmeester – more than anything, I don’t think the Flames can trade him. He’s highly unlikely to

live up to his monstrous contract, but he’s still a very good d-man and fits fine on this team.

 

Matt Stajan – I know this pick will cause some controversy but hear me out. He’s a second line center

at $3.5m per year. A lot has been made of his lack of goals but he’s one of only 4 players on the team

averaging over 2 points per 60 minutes at even strength. That’s a top 6 scoring rate. He’s facing the 2nd

hardest competition for forwards (behind Hagman) and leads the team in shooting percentage when

missed nets are included. At the age of 27, he’s got 3 or 4 years left at this level of production.

 

David Moss & Tim Jackman – this two-headed monster seems to be driving the 4th-line-on-steroids.

 

Combined they cost under $2m per year and outplay just about every 3rd and 4th line in the league.

"Mossman" is a legit weapon and doubles as a cool title for a horror flick about environmental activists.

 

Mikael Backlund – He’s made great progress in his first extended stay on the Flames and I made my case for him about 3 weeks ago.

 

 

Rene Bourque – At $3.3m he doesn’t have to light it up in order to live up to his contract. He’s not

having a great year, but no one on the team is and he’s still on pace for 30 goals which is a rarity on this

team. My only concern is that at 29 I’m not sure he’ll get much better at this point.

 

Jarome Iginla – yes, I’ve changed my tune and want to keep him. If the team can get materially younger in the offseason, they’ll need someone to teach the ropes to the young guys. Iggy fits that bill and could still be one of the best 2nd line players in the league. He’s also a Calgary icon. The only way I would sanction a move is if 2 blue chippers are involved. Think Brayden Schenn and a 1st rounder.

 

That’s only 8 players I’ve listed. That leaves a ton of room for roster movement.

 

 

Hayley: At the moment, very few players. With ongoing debates about the trade value of players that were once considered "core" like Kiprusoff, Regehr, and Iginla the consensus seems to be that the Flames should get a package that includes draft picks and young prospects and/or roster players in exchange for some of the aforementioned names. If I had to table a guess, I’d probably say Backlund, Bouwmeester, Bourque, and Giordano—in short, some of the few players on this roster under 30.

 

Arik: When identifying the core of a rebuilding team going forward, two things need to be taken into account: current age and expectations for the team during the rebuild. Chances are, you don't want to be the New York Islanders in a rebuild, or just as bad, the Edmonton Oilers. You want a team that doesn't look completely awful on the ice on a nightly basis. Yeah, you can expect to lose, but so long as the team entertains and is worth watching, you'll be alright. So who should the Flames target to keep to fulfill these two requirements?

 

Mark Giordano: Not just a solid defenseman, but a youngish one who will still be a viable player throughout a rebuild. More importantly, he's really the heart and soul of the team right now. There is no player who gives more on the ice on a nightly basis- and that's what makes a team worth watching. Send off Iginla, give Giordano the C.

 

Mikael Backlund: About the only prospect who's truly developed since Dion Phaneuf, and he's still learning a lot as a player. Mickis shows creativity in every game, and seems to really care about the team. He'll get a lot better over the next few years

 

Matt Stajan: People love to complain about Stajan. I can understand this. But all the same, it's hard to blame him for signing an absurd contract. Fact is, he's a pretty okay second line center. He's defensively responsible, can generate a decent amount of offense, and in a rebuild, those are the players you want.

 

Jay Bouwmeester: With Bouwmeester- it's all about the return. If you can get a solid return- trade him, otherwise he's good enough and young enough to keep around throughout the rebuild.

 

4. What's your best-case scenario when the trade deadline is over (being realistic of course)?

 

Ryan: I’d love to see Kotalik and Jokinen gone for a spare jock and Reggie sent off to a team that could use him with a blue-chipper in return. Last summer the 3 players I mentioned that could really help the Flames were Logan Couture, Thomas Hickey and John Carlson. Two of those three are absolutely tearing up the NHL right now and Brayden Schenn probably would have been a better pluck from the Kings roster than Hickey at this point.

 

Some player’s I would love to see in return for Regehr? I’ll refer to the Hockey Prospectus 2010 Top 50 NHL prospects. I’ll list prospects from team’s that might need Regehr, but I’d much prefer a forward to a defenseman at this point. The number in the list is his ranking in the top 50.

 

Oliver Ekman-Larsson – D, Phoenix (6th)

 

Brayden Schenn – F, Los Angeles (10th)

 

Vladimir Tarasenko – F, St. Louis (13th)

 

Mikkel Boedker – F, Phoenix (26th)

 

Jaden Schwartz – F, St. Louis (44th)

 

Louis Leblanc – F, Montreal (45th)

 

Evgeny Kuznetsov – F, Washington (48th)

 

I only chose players from teams I thought might need Regehr and were possibly in the playoff hunt. Any of those players would dramatically upgrade the Flames future offensive ability.

 

Hayley: With the deadline little more than a month away and the Flames’ playoff chances very

slim, it seems evident that they’re going to be sellers at the deadline. By then, Feaster

should have a good sense of who can be moved and who is available for what. I think

ideally, I’d like to see some bad contracts like Stajan's or Kotalik's moved for whatever they

can get in return, but I think the player with the highest trade value who could be moved right

now is Regehr. With one pick in the top-100 at the Draft this summer, I’d like to see the

Flames try to stockpile some draft picks even if they’re not in a position where they could

potentially pick in the top five.

 

Arik: I'd really love to see Regehr traded. Not because I have anything against the guy, but because it's a realistic trade. I mean, I'd hope to see Iggy flipped for Brayden Schenn and Anze Kopitar, but it's not going to happen. Regehr for a solid prospect though? That I can see. Someone like Loktionov, Boychuk, or Niederreiter. None of them blue chips, but all of them near sure-NHLers.

 

On a similar note, Sarich needs to be gone. Give his ice time to TJ Brodie, get a mid-round pick back. Depending on the market, the Flames could theoretically get a second for him, but that remains to be seen. Realistically speaking, that's about all I fear we can expect. Kotalik isn't leaving. Neither is Jokinen or Staios. Unless, of course, another franchise hires Darryl Sutter before the trade deadline.

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I'll start with the rebuttals.

1. Arik. The New York Islanders became the New York Islanders through a rebuild. They didn’t slide away from a division competing team into futility, unless you’re talking over the last 30 or so years.

There is no doubt that the Flames need to turn over some players who have been here too long, but the time has to be right to do that.

Let me ask all of you this: You live in a house. A very shitty house. Do you: A.) repair the most urgent problems, board up the broken windows and start building a new young house over time… or B.) Tear the whole house down and live in a tent, understanding that the new house you build may be no better than the old?

2. Today: Kotalik, Stajan, Sarich, Staois, Ivanans, Hagman – That’s 6.3m on defense and 10.1 on forward gone. A total of 16.4m dollars for an immediate retool (if trades were easy)

Short term (Summer): Iginla. At 7 million there is little chance we re-build or re-tool with him being around to see the benefits. He’s our biggest trade chip and can bring in immediate returns.

Medium Term (2012 +/-): Kiprusoff and Regehr. Anyone suggesting moving Regehr before Sarich is insane. Reggie makes 400k more and is twice the defender.

Kiprusoff, I don’t believe you Ryan. SV% can be influenced by PP and PK numbers drastically, therefore, it’s best to use EVSv%. Do you want a young forward with 2 EV goals and 10 PP goals? Or a forward with 10EV goals and 2 PP goals? THe answer is #2.

Kiprusoff’s EV SV% over the last four years is .919, .907, .928, .910. Two weeks ago that last number was .924. He’s averaged .925 since the lockout. Only four goalies are better than that today: Thomas, Vokoun, Luongo, Lundkvist.

EVSV% offers the BEST indication over the largest sample, with the most neutral control (5v5), so that’s the place to judge.

Add to that, the goalie market is brutal, you won’t get anything but a salary dump for Kipper, which at 5.83million ain’t much compared to the previous 23.4million to work with that’s a better start?

Do you dump Kiprusoff’s money before Kotalik, Sarich, Hagman or Staois? Not a chance.

Core I’ll say this: Our “Core” today is Iggy, Gio, Kiprusoff, Bourque Reggie, Jbo… fair?

+/- : Iggy -10, Gio, -13, Bourque -10, at EV… are those three guys who we want to build around? Is that going to be our leadership group? One Way forwards and…… what kind of defenseman? I like all those guys, but if we’re talking numbers…. hard numbers, like with Kiprusoff, then my team has no room for a -13 defenseman and two -10 forwards. They are the worst on the team by a long shot.

Jbo at +4 and Regehr at +10! (and only 4 million) on the other had. Trading Reggie would be crazy.

4. Arik… Staios is gone at year’s end.

I tell ya, For the life of me, I cannot understand all the talk of hoping to trade Reggie and Kipper. If there is any “core” money on this team that has any defense of being well spent it’s with those two first (excluding Tanguay, Morrison and Jackman of course).

by LawrenceS on Jan 23, 2011 7:09 PM PST reply actions  

WOW... that's way too much, here is an abridged version

1. Kipper 5th best evsv% in the league since the lockout – keep him.

2. With Easy trades clear out 16.4mil. first before anything else.

3. Three core players Gio: -13, Iggy: -10, Bourque: -10…. are those guys the future we want?

4. Reggie is 4mil and +10 vs Gio 4 mil and -13… wtf? Defend keeping Gio over Reggie.

by LawrenceS on Jan 23, 2011 7:13 PM PST up reply actions  

This is in response to the small one, I’ll address the monster tomorrow:
1. The lockout was 7 years ago. So was Kippers heyday.

2. Okay?

3. +/- is the worst stat. Just awful. Don’t ever try and make a point with it.

4. See 3. Also, Reggie’s name carries a hell of a lot more weight than Gio’s, therefore, better return. You could get a great prospect for Reggie, hard to say the same for Gio.

by ArikJames on Jan 23, 2011 7:47 PM PST up reply actions  

1. That’s since the lockout, in other words, the collective of all his seasons to date. And actually, Kipper had a pretty darn good year last year as well, no? .928 ev sv% so you cannot say that was “7 years ago”. Futhermore, if you’re going to try an boil your argument down to the impact of 6 games (tiny sample) then the argument is pointless, 6 games ago Kiprusoffs evsv% was .924…. .001% off his numbers from 05/06 until today.

3. Why is +/- the worst stat? Because it doesn’t support your argument? Okay, GaON/60 Reggie 2.18/60, Gio 2.95. Regehr has the best Corsi rel QComp of anyone on the team.

Look, I’m not advocating trading Gio. I like Gio. I want Gio on this team. I just don’t see how or why people advocate getting rid of players who are good value (such as Regehr) when we could get rid of half or more of the team before that.

Whether you “like” the argument or not. It stands to reason that Gio and Regehr are equally valuable to this team in different ways. All the reasons you would want to KEEP Gio would be all the reasons he would HAVE trade value. That’s pretty elementary.

The point is, everyone talks about trading this guy, and trading the other guy… with litle thought on actually improving the team.

It’s hypothetical at best, I realize, but I think we can all agree cleaning out the problems first, and keeping value contracts is a better start than the opposite.

by LawrenceS on Jan 23, 2011 10:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Trade value is rarely the same as actual value. Just because Giordano brings a lot of talent, in similar amounts, to the table in different ways from Regehr, doesn’t mean he’d bring the same return.

+/- is just a terrible stat all around. It doesn’t account for goaltender error, other player’s errors, and so on. Fenwick numbers are my preference.

As far as my reasoning on cleaning out problems first and keeping value contracts: value contracts will bring you the best returns, problems…not so much, but they’ll clean themselves out as they expire eventually.

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 3:55 AM PST up reply actions  

All stats have a factor of error in them. In fact, +/- is used to calculate “quality of” stats at BehindtheNet, so if +/- is flawed, then everything built off it is equally or more so. You’re not supporting you argument why it is terrible very well.

I’m not saying it’s a great stat. It’s a worse stat for forwards, but pretty solid for defenders IF used solely for comparison amongst defenders on the same team. Defenders cannot be caught coming on the ice for a minus like a forward, so every minus is a “true” effect. It’s at even’s and it’s a clean number. There is NO subjectivity to +/-. You’re on or you’re not on. Isn’t it telling that the other worst +/- players on the team are Jokinen, Iginla, Kotalik, Bourque? Are those players known for defensive excellence? Nope.

As far as goalie “error” Regher has a .921 sv%on and Gio a .886. Gio is the ONLY defender much under the ~.900 range. I believe players DO influence sv% somewhat, but that’s a different argument. You might argue it’s bad luck (PDO) so Gio’s Sv%on is .014 from the mean. CGY has 1061 SA… that’s only 15GA. If you’re going to argue that EVERY one of Gio’s “-” is from goalie error, it’s possible, but not probable. Especially when that disregards any “+” plays he’s on for. I won’t disregard that a portion of it could be bad luck, but I think it’s a pretty big stretch to chalk it all up to that.

Furthermore, the flames have 96 EVGF and 99EVGA (-3) there aren’t bleeding chances at even. Gio has been on for 23! more against than for, when compared to Regehr. His regular partner Sarich is a “+” player, so he’s not being dragged down by Cory. He’s also one of our most offensive, dynamic defenders… so he should get lot’s of plusses, no? More than say Reggie, who has only 6 pts.

I’m not saying it’s the best stat, but comparing defender to defender it’s got merit. Is it purely coincidence that Lidstrom leads the Wings almost every year in +/-? That he’s a + 429 career player? Sure, he’s -2 this year, but that doesn’t mean I’m suddenly going to think the stat is meaningless.

by LawrenceS on Jan 24, 2011 8:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Okay, you love +/-, I get it. That’s hardly the crux of my argument…

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 8:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Wading in

5.5 seasons since lockout ended. Kipper is 5th best Evsv% as Lawrence says – but that average certainly supported by.941 and .932 in the first 2 years after the lockout. He’s been outstanding, no question – but is he still ? Or can he be going forward ?

I think we can give D Sutter credit for making Gio and Regehr equivalent in salary. Each brings different but valuable qualities. The concept of trading Regehr – as it is for Kipper – is will he be contributing at the same level in 2 or 3 years, what is looking like the earliest possible window for this team to be a contender. Not likely, so if you want to rebuild you’d better convert assets in to something before they become of less value. This would not be neccesary if the prospect system was rated in the top 10 – but they are not – you know where they are.

+/- is a worth looking at for sure, especially within the team – (as opposed to comparing to a player on another tea, with some allowance given for how they are deployed.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 10:08 AM PST up reply actions  

+/- is fine for comparing on the same team – but it’s just like Corsi, it doesn’t show quality of teammates, quality of competition and zone starts. I think you’ve outlined those items quite adequately now. And you’ve got a hell of a point.

You want a shot at writing your response to the 4 questions? I’ll gladly put it front page if you FanPost.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 24, 2011 11:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Point #3 – +/- is the most flawed stat in the game. It’s the last thing I’d use to judge a player.

Point #4 – Gio’s Corsi per 60 is 10 while Reggie’s is -1. Gio has a 4% zone start advantage and a 1 point Corsi Rel QoC advantage. We could call that a draw or a slight advantage for Gio. Meanwhile Gio is 27 while Reggie is 30. Also, Gio scores points at roughly double the rate Reggie does.

To summarize, similar Corsi, 3 years younger and racks up points twice as fast. Does that work?

By the way, on the house analogy I’m totally with you. I don’t advocate blowing it up, I’m only looking at which players I think could give the Flames a good return so they never sink to the abyss but get enough young assetts to come back stronger.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 23, 2011 7:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I’ve said this before: look at franchises like the Leafs, Panthers, NYI, Columbus, and Atlanta (before this year). All of those teams are in a perpetual rebuilding mode, and they pick rather high each year. It hasn’t helped them, and they lose money (well, except the Leafs, but that’s a completely different issue). You can say it’s been bad management, but what exactly would you call what we have here?

Also, Kris Chucko. And Oleg Saprykin. Denis Gauthier, Rico Fata…the list goes on and on.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 23, 2011 8:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Leafs haven’t really gotten to pick high. Columbus regularly screws up the development of players, and Atlanta was run by Don Waddell, who may possibly be less qualified than Darryl Sutter to run a hockey team. And the Panthers really don’t pick that high, they tend to be around 8-14. Highish? Yeah. But not really “team of the future” material.

by ArikJames on Jan 23, 2011 8:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Leafs-since 06, they’ve picked 13th, 5th and 7th, and last year would have picked 2nd. Looks like a top 5 pick this year too. As of right now, those two picks=bad management. SInce 04, Columbus’ development system has produced 16 players who have played at least one NHL game-the Flames? 9, one of whom was Kris Chucko. Even though Atlanta was run by Don Wadell, they drafted many “can’t miss prospects”-go look at CSS’ ranking of Boris Valabik. I’ll concede on the Panthers.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 23, 2011 8:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I’ve never understood CSS’s ranking of Valabik, or pretty much anyone similar. They get caught up looking at the size and weight and ignore the fact that he can’t skate and has no defensive sense. Ignoring that for the moment, he was taken at 10 overall, not quite “sure fire NHL player” territory. (Looking back, that was a pretty bad draft year. Al friggin Montoya went 6th overall.)

Anyways, that organization is still completely mishandling prospects. Look at Bogosian. He gets benched because he has pretty much the worst zone starts and against the oppositions best players? Jesus. What the hell are they doing in Atlanta?

As far as Columbus, same deal. Look at Filatov- how much do you think Hitchcock destroyed that kid’s development?

In the end, it all comes down to scouting. If you scout well, you draft well. The Flames did not scout well for a long time.

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 5:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Picking high in the draft definitely isn’t a guarantee for success. That’s why tanking for high picks is too risky. That said, signing quality free agents to value deals and stockpiling prospects on the hope that some of them hit is just fine in my mind.

The Flames have actually been decent in free agency. Not stellar, but decent. The draft has been pitiful though.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 23, 2011 8:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Lawrence – I love the passion in your response. However, I don’t agree with everything.

In my mind Stajan is a core guy. You took me to task on Kipper’s EV SV%, yet you’re ignoring Stajan’s underlying stats.

My fascination with possibly moving Regehr or Kipper is not with wanting them gone, it’s with getting the best return. Sarich is definitely of less value to the Flames than Reggie, but that’s the way other teams will see it too. Both guys are getting up in years and still have value now.

 By the way, for a young forward, I’ll take 12 goals either way – it just depends how you use him.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 23, 2011 7:46 PM PST up reply actions  

The HLI @ HP is a great tool, so Kudos for that. Stajan is effective, he’s just not getting the gaudy boxcars.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 23, 2011 7:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks man. It took a while to come up with it. That said, it still needs a little work. I figured that I’d roll out the results now and come out with a version 2.0 in the summer with a few tweaks.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 23, 2011 8:01 PM PST up reply actions  

I didn’t ignore anything with Stajan’s underlying stats. I didn’t comment much at all on Stajan. I only put him in a list of players to be traded.

Let me ask you this: Is Stajan’s upside so strong that taking a risk on another 3.5million 3rd line centre is likely to fail? Doubtful.

I don’t like Stajan simply due to his contract. Dude is making 3.5million cap hit and 4.5million per year right now. He’s got 6 goals since he’s come here. Jackman has 7. His best season has been 16 goals. BEST season.

I don’t NEED to look at his underlying stats. He’s not a 4.5million dollar player. You can’t even argue intangibles with Stajan. He’s soft. He’s not particularly dynamic. I’d rather role Backlund in his spot if we’re developing players.

Stajan is making more real dollars than Daymond Langkow is. Sure, Langkow is hurt, but Langkow is worth 4.5 million (2 time 30g+, 5 time 20g+, defensively excellent etc.)

by LawrenceS on Jan 23, 2011 10:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe I’m missing your point.

Mine was that there were bigger cap hogs (Kotalik, Joker, Staios, Sarich, etc) and we still needed some solid NHLers on the team. Are there players becoming FAs this year that you could see getting for $3.5m cap hit (that’s all that matters, not salary) that have bigger upside than Stajan?

He’s not a star in the making or anything, and is what he is at this point. I just think there are much bigger worries on the roster.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 23, 2011 11:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Why wouldn't the same argument apply at least to Reggie and Kipper?

That’s MY argument for them. I would say that Stajan is a bigger concern than Reggie or Kipper.

Like I said: “Cleaning out the problems first, and keeping value contracts is a better start than keeping the problems and cleaning out value contracts.”

There is about 17million worth of low value contracts on this team: Staois, Sarich, Hagman, Kotalik, Ivanans, and…… Stajan. You say Jokinen, I say Stajan. Better for me that they are both gone.

Stajan is our highest paid cantre (excluding Langkow) and he’s playing third line. He couldn’t beat out Jokinen or Morrison! for the #1 role. That’s saying something.

Let me ask you this: Langkow comes back today… who do you take out of the line-up? Backlund? Fair enough… after that? Stajan or Jokinen. They are comparable, which is scary, difference is, Joker makes 500k less and only has one year left, not three. If the Islanders came calling, in that situation, for a 2nd rounder, I dump Stajan first if I could, based on the term of his deal.

by LawrenceS on Jan 24, 2011 8:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Stajan

If you were able to clear him off – what is the end game ? To sign another player to replace him ? UFA’s generally more expensive.The 4 year deal puts Stajan’ s trade value way down, so you get nothing for him and the likelihood of signing an impact player to replace him at that rate is not good given the current state of the franchise. ( Colby Armstrong signed in Toronto because its Toronto)

There is limited flexibilty for next year – unless you can get both Jokinen and Kotalik to go to Europe. The view has to be for the season after that where there is some flexibility.

I agree that Reggie and Kipper are of more value presently, but the question is for how long can they contribute at a high level. Is it worthwhile to keep them around while we have so many low value contracts – many of which are through next year ( kotalik,jokinen, sarich).

Ideally – we’d be worrying about salary issues not to sign UFA’s but to retain high performing RFA’s in their early to mid 20’s. Since we don’t have any of those, and outside of Backlund, Stajan is the youngest forward.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 9:01 AM PST up reply actions  

outside of Backlund, Stajan is the youngest forward.

That’s really depressing.

If you’re going to go into a full-on rebuild, you might as well trade (or try to trade) everyone who is 31 and older. By the time they emerge from the dark depths of 70 point land, those guys who are still in their prime at 31 will be 33 or 34 and pretty much useless in terms of the direction the team is taking.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 24, 2011 9:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Thank you. You get exactly what I’ve been trying to argue.

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

That’s because I was arguing it last summer. The team faded badly after the Olympics and we were essentially icing the same squad beginning this season- now the league’s second oldest, with the lowest rated prospect grout amont all teams. The rebuild should have begun in June. There was no logical reason to believe that there would be improvement.

I said, and will continue to say that it’s unfair to ask Iginla – at his age – to be the guy carrying the mail for the first line. Only 3 guys in top 50 in the league in scoring older than Iggy ; Martin St Louis, Teemu Selanne and Milan Hedjuk. Marty’s playing with some pretty good talent, Teemu has the Getzlaf line ahead of him to make trail, and Hedjuk has somte plum teammates too – I’d take Paul Stastny or Matt Duchene over any of our other forwards. Only a couple of other guys close in age.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 1:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Paul Stastny is probably one of the best forwards in the league, but he plays Parise/Kesler type minutes and competition.

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

When evaluating junior talent a major indicator of potential success in the bigs is whether their goals and points are coming at even strength (signs of moving the puck north at evens) or on the PP (signs of fortunate circumstances and PP ice time).

I’ll take the guy with 10 EV goals and 2 PP goals.

Think Olli Jokinen and his 34+ goal seasons. That’s a ton of PP production… yet at even… unmitigated disaster.

by LawrenceS on Jan 23, 2011 10:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I would prefer EV goals as well as an indicator of future success, but PP goals are great if they are scored efficiently. We’re talking hypotheticals here but there are teams like the Flames that could use a PP specialist.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 23, 2011 11:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Alright Lawrence, I’m tackling your big one.

As far as the Islanders comment: here’s how I perceive what happened with them:

1. Mike Milbury digs them into a hole. An Alexei Yashin and Rick DiPietro shaped hole.

2. Milbury gets fired (rightly so, he was awful. Traded how many great prospects that are now all-stars?)

3. Garth Snow sees an opportunity to make the playoffs in 2006-2007, sells off the future by trading away a 2nd rounder for Zednik, and 1st rounder as well as a couple prospects for Ryan Smyth.

4. Then, realizing he was losing the guy he had mortgaged the future for (Smyth) in free agency as well as having no reliably healthy goalie and a terrible team, Snow announces a rebuild. Besides, given an NHL goalie, Mark Streit not being injured, and 1 more season, we could see an entirely different New York Islanders. Also not firing their excellent coach in the middle of the season. (Seriously, Scott Gordon is awesome, and he should be the next coach of the Flames)

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 5:47 AM PST up reply actions  

You really think Streit would have that kind of impact? Roloson was/is an NHL caliber tendy. They have had a lot of injuries, but good teams can make up for that with depth. There is a lot more wrong in NY then a couple players being hurt/unavailable.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 24, 2011 9:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Striet is pretty good – he was their best player last year. Islanders did start horribly (5-19-5) but have played much better since mid December 10-6-2. I don’t think they are that far away.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 9:07 AM PST up reply actions  

and

Look at New Jersey go – 7-0-1 in their last 8

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 9:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Streit is unbelievable. Probably one the most underrated defenseman in the league. I’m not saying the Isles would be competing for a top 4 spot right now if they had him and Okposo hadn’t been lost all season and Tavares for part of it, but I am saying that they’d be a lot better than they are now. Right in that ATL area. Between 6th and 9th, in my opinion.

It’s not just a couple players: it’s a top defenseman in the league out for a full season, a first liner for most of it (Okposo is finally back), another first liner missing a few weeks (Tavares), and firing their coach in the middle of all of this.

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 9:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I forgot to ask – where did you get Kipper’s EV SV% from? I’m having trouble with that section on BTN lately and so used regular Sv % instead. Definitely an error in judgement. Good catch.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 24, 2011 7:38 AM PST up reply actions  

You get it from NHL.com. Sort goalie stats by special teams. But I have an excel spreadsheet. I have every goalie (or significant one anyway, about 24) from 03/04 until today.

by LawrenceS on Jan 24, 2011 8:49 AM PST up reply actions  

I’d like to say that I greatly approve of “Mossman” as the 4th line’s name. Good discussion, guys. I agree with a lot of what was said, and just wanted to add that, if Colorado was actually making some money, they seem like they’d be the perfect team to take JBo for a young forward of some sort.

by SmellOfVictory on Jan 23, 2011 8:55 PM PST reply actions  

Glad you like it. I was pretty proud of myself. Small victories.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 24, 2011 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Ryan wants to change the carpet, redo the wiring and paint the exterior, Hayley wants to take out the office and build an extension, and Arik would like it if we lived in an apartment for a year while the new house is being built. Accurate?

I’m not so sure I like this reasoning for JBo.

it’s all about the return

Could that not be applied to anyone on the team save Kotalik, Staios and Jokinen? Why would the team trade any of the other 18 guys if they aren’t getting equal return?

You guys all saw how awful the defence was in the three games Reggie was gone last week. Ostensibly, if the team is “rebuliding”, then we wouldn’t be getting NHL players back in a trade that would involve 28, and if we did get an NHLer, there is no way he would be able to hold his own against top 6 comp. There’s a huge logjam in the 4-7 spots on the blue line as it is-Pelech, Brodie, Pardy, Babchuk, Negrin, Sarich, Mikkelson, etc. None of those guys are going to step up and play those top 4 minutes next year if the team wants to be close to “good”. Maybe Babchuk or Pardy takes a step forward, but realistically the other 5 guys aren’t getting there.

I just don’t see how trading one of the big guns helps at all. Trade Iginla, and you have lost more then just a .9PPG player, you’ve lost an entire “first” line. Get rid of Regehr, and then your defensive depth chart is pretty much JBo, Gio and Sarich. That’s a pretty remarkable drop off. Kipper is playing better then a replacement level goalie, but the team is still hovering around .500. The other inherent problem with trading any one of those three is that the other 29 teams will see it as a rebuild-which may lead to Feaster having to take less for one or two of the guys. If you are going to trade one, you have to trade all three. Cap wise, it doesn’t make sense to get rid of them all due to the dearth of quality UFAs, and Calgary isn’t in a situation where they can be taking on cash, obviously.

Jarome has a reputation. No matter what he does for the remainder of this season, he’s going to get the same return. Someone will overpay for him. Ryan: I don’t see why Montreal would want Regehr-they have 3 massive, old d-men as it is and I don’t think there is a trade that can equal out the cap dollars yet still be a net positive for the Flames unless MTL was taking on 3 mil of the salary.

False Dilemma. It’s either we trade the guys before they lose so much value they are worthless or we keep them until their perceived value is zilch.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 23, 2011 8:56 PM PST reply actions  

The defense would suffer for trading Regehr without a question. My stance could probably be boiled down to this:

We’re in 14th in the West. Something about our team must suck. We don’t suck the same way some other teams do, but some changes have to be made. In order to get younger and with more talent overall, the only bargaining chips we have are vets who still have value to another team. We will get a bit worse and more inexperienced before we get better. Nobody will give us a top prospect for the likes of Kotalik.

By the way – the only reason I thought Montreal might want Regehr is due to injuries on the blueline. They’re not a great fit, but you never know.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 23, 2011 11:46 PM PST up reply actions  

We are 14th, but we’re also 5 points out of a playoff spot. I don’t think there is any one thing on the team that sucks, it’s just been a rash of inconsistency. It’s not like we’re the Columbus of last year, sitting 16 points back.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 24, 2011 8:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Well Justin, I’d say converting possession in to scoring is the one thing that (still) sucks. How many times do we think that based on their play they deserve better ? That’s a game with possession without finish, an all to frequent occurence.
 
They have an opportunity to close to 8 points out of 4th tonight which is mind numbing – home ice advantage ?

Good grief – if they even got just one of those last 3 against Minnesota.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 9:24 AM PST up reply actions  

The team’s SH% is below the league mean, right? Most of that can be based on luck, because players don’t suddenly forget how to score. Look at how many posts Jokinen hits-a margin of error that small can’t all be placed on the player’s skill.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 24, 2011 9:31 AM PST up reply actions  

They don’t forget how to score, sure. However, one thing I’ve heard many times from older players is that the first thing to go in a given player’s ability is the hands. With an older team like the Flames where the top like frequently consists of Olli Jokinen and Alex Tanguay, that sounds about right. A small amount is luck, but just as much is a decline in shooting ability.

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 10:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Your point about not converting possession to chances is very true, but there are also games like Saturday against Vancouver where they got outplayed in that department and managed to escape with the win. Unless you’re the 09/10 Avs, it usually evens out over the course of the season.

by Hayley on Jan 24, 2011 9:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks to everyone who has put in so much time and effort into this discussion.

by Colin S on Jan 23, 2011 11:00 PM PST reply actions  

agree – thanks to those firing around opinions. I have way more fun with this than the posts where everyone just reads and leaves.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 23, 2011 11:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Definitely agreed. This is what makes a community thrive.

by ArikJames on Jan 24, 2011 5:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Great discussion

Sorry I missed it. Hockey, basketball, Robbie Burns night and piano recital. Chasing my kids all weekend !

The safe middle ground is this : if the Flames are out of a playoff spot at the deadline they trading pending UFA’s only – Glencross, Babchuk, Tanguay, Morrison, Staios. If they can make a deal for Sarich to go somewhere – do that as well; you have to find someone willing to pay him next year. Convince Kotalik to play in Europe next year.

Assuming Langkow is done that leaves you at $45.1 million with 14 guys under contract.
Karlsson – $1 m
Pardy Mikkelson and Brodie plus one other FA defensman = $5 m
You have 9 useful forwards under contract and you need 4 or 5 more and you have roughly $9m to spend. Hopefully with one of the trades made at the deadline you can get a piece or two that is ready to step in cheaply and you can pony up for a useful FA somehow. This plan still does not address the fact that our first line is less than others, however we would remain strong on lines 2-4.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 7:06 AM PST reply actions  

My only concern with this approach is that it doesn’t address some of the deadweight contracts and definitely doesn’t add much in the way of talented youth. Granted, the Flames don’t need 5 first round prospects to turn things around, but they could use probably 1 established NHL forward who can play tough minutes and 1 blue-chip forward prospect at this point.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 24, 2011 7:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Granted, the Flames don’t need 5 first round prospects to turn things around, but they could use probably 1 established NHL forward who can play tough minutes

I’m not in love with Langkow as some people, but I sure as hell miss the guy.

by LawrenceS on Jan 24, 2011 8:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes

A healthy Langkow is more effective than Jokinen in the tough minutes role and means Jokinen gets easier minutes and perhaps better production, but it also probably means Morisson is not signed.

A healthy Langkow would also mean some salary cap pressure – nothing that couldn’t be solved with Steve and Ales heading to Abbotsford.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 9:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Ditto – and I think the ripple effect on the roster is bigger than we think. Every other center has to play 1 step over their heads.

Ryan

Matchsticks & Gasoline, Hockey Prospectus, &Sports Opinionated. My twitter handle is @sprtopinionated

by SO_RyanP on Jan 24, 2011 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

GVT confirms - sort of

2009-10 2010-11 Full season
Morrison 7.6 4.4 7.36
Backlund 1.3 1.7 2.84
Jokinen 8.1 2.3 3.85
Stajan 7.5 2.6 4.35
Langkow 5.7
22.6 11 18.41

This years numbers to date, then projected to the end. Last years totals include Langkow but not Morisson, this years of course opposite. Backlund’s 1.3 last year in 23 games pretty good, this year only on pace for 2.8 – wish it was more. It looks like with Langkow out, Jokinen is half the player he was last year. Good thing we got him half price. Morisson giving same value as he did in Washington, deployed similarly ( until recently) in a 3rd line role. Stajan value not that great, but not appreciably less than Langkow’s full season last year.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

The thing with trading away the pending UFA’s is that aside from Tanguay, none of them have much value, and that value is only going to be reduced if the dude ends up being a “rental player”. Probably better to just keep them on as cap flexibility, because I don’t see us getting a second rounder for Morrison or a first for Glencross.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 24, 2011 9:06 AM PST up reply actions  

No - not big returns

But to get nothing for them is not right either. I mean someone gave away a 3rd rounder for Steve Staios for cryin out loud.
Oh wait – that was us.

I think Glencross or Tanguay could get a 2nd pick or a forward prospect already drafted still in junior. There sure needs to be some more forward prospects to be pushing for a spot next year, but especially the year after.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 9:12 AM PST up reply actions  

It’s a good thing Feaster has another month to figure all of this out.

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 24, 2011 9:15 AM PST up reply actions  

So close, yet so far. ;)

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 24, 2011 9:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Did I do that incorrectly ?

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

The URL has to be a direct link to the actual image-it should always end in .jpg or .gif

The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go

by Justin Azevedo on Jan 24, 2011 9:49 AM PST up reply actions  

thanks

Look forward to more demotivators.

by PrairieStew on Jan 24, 2011 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed. Even Tanguay has been inconsistent at times this season, albeit less so than Glencross. Morrison has also played in fits and starts.

by Hayley on Jan 24, 2011 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Somewhat interested in NCAA FA’s. Burkey has been doing quite the job at snagging guys playing college hockey.

Isn’t that how Bourque got into the league as well?

With only one pick in the top 100, and no sign of a rebuild in site, something has to happen.

by dotfras on Jan 26, 2011 5:45 PM PST reply actions  

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