Summer Fill: M&G Talks to Blueshirt Banter's Joe Fortunato
by Hayley on Aug 26, 2010 11:56 AM PDT
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PrintThe Flames and Rangers have been in similar positions since the lockout; both have experienced decent but unspectacular regular season successes followed by mediocre playoff performances, and both missed on the post-season this past spring for the first time since the work stoppage. Both general managers seem to have zero awareness of the concept of budgeting and both seem to share some sort of fetish for goons, expensive defencemen, and Scandinavian goalies. In an effort to get to know our Eastern Conference parallels better, I sent a few questions over the boys at Blueshirt Banter as part of SBN Hockey’s Summer Fill series. Enjoy!
Like Sutter, Sather’s teams never seem to be complete without an enforcer. What is your opinion on the modern day NHL goon and his place in the game?
I think that the modern day enforcer is an important tool to have on a roster. You need a guy who can not only throw his weight around, but stop other guys from doing the same. In the Rangers case, I feel that an enforcer is not only an important tool, but a vital one. In the big, bad Atlantic where you have a ton of big, tough teams, an enforcer is a pretty big piece of the puzzle-- even if they only play five minutes a game.
The general consensus on Olli Jokinen’s time with the Flames thus far seems to be that although he didn’t done much help himself, he was also a tad unlucky and wasn’t always deployed in the best circumstances by head coach Brent Sutter. As a Flames fan, I have to ask what your impression of Jokinen was in the short amount of time he spent with the Rangers?
Olli Jokinen was a very interesting player for the Rangers. A ton of talent (which he flashed every now and then) and perhaps a sense of relief that he was out of the oppressive atmosphere in Calgary. I never saw any signs of a negative attitude, and everyone said that he was a great guy in the locker room, I just didn't see any drive or passion. It's like he didn't even enjoy playing the game. Plus it wouldn't hurt him to shoot a lot more.
Realistically, do you expect Wade Redden to be demoted, bought out, or otherwise rid of before the season starts?
Ah, the million dollar New York Rangers question. Redden will never be bought out, because the punishing cap hit is ridiculous due to the current structure of his contract. He might (and I truly believe he will) be buried in the AHL this year. The Rangers are going to be over the cap once the current Marc Staal holdout ends, and Sather is going to need some wiggle room for mid to late season moves, call-ups, etc. Plus a variety of newspapers (including Newsday, which is owned by James Dolan, who owns the Rangers) have reported that once training camp hits, he's done. The only other option would be a trade, but no team would ever think of taking Redden. That would be like taking Kotalik and Higgins for an expiring contract of Olli Jokinen and then re-signing Joki-- ..... :)
Any word on Marc Staal’s status with the team? What is your ideal figure/term for a new contract?
The Rangers are, and always have been, a very close-to-the-vest organization. You're not going to hear anything about negotiations or other issues anywhere, it's all just speculation and rumors. As of right now, I have no idea what's going on, and I have no idea when it will be solved. I would assume somewhere around September. As for figures, Sather offered him a 4-year/$14 million contract and it was denied. There are rumors that he wants more money, less years or both.
The Rangers have been fairly quiet on the free agent front this summer apart from the Frolov signing, what is your take on the moves the team has made and the current roster? Despite being up against the cap ceiling, are there any holes yet to be filled?
I like the Derek Boogaard move, but I hate his contract. Like I said above, having an enforcer in the Atlantic is necessary, but not at that price tag. Re-signing Prust (remember him?), Christensen, Prospal and Girardi were all great moves. Adding Biron (the Rangers sorely needed a backup goaltender) makes a huge different as well. Overall I give Sather a nice fat A- for this off season. The Frolov contract was pretty amazing too.
In your opinion, which prospects in the Rangers’ system should fans be most aware of? Any perspective dark horses?
Derek Stepan lead the World Junior Championship in scoring this year (over 1st overall pick Taylor Hall and many other big name prospects), however Evgeny Grachev is probably the Rangers best prospect in the system, Hockey's Future ranks him as the 18th best prospect in the NHL. Kreider is another guy who's name you should keep on your radar; entering his second season in Boston College, he had 6 goals in the 2010 World Junior Championship. As for any dark horses, there are a bunch, but 'll simply go with Ethan Werek, a guy who I think has a ton of talent and potential. Although some people don't agree, I see him doing big things one day.
After narrowly missing out on the post season this past spring, what are your expectations for the coming season, in terms of where the team will finish?
I'm probably the wrong person to ask, I called the Rangers winning the division last year. But with the addition of Frolov and Biron (and basically the same team as before), I think that the Rangers are a playoff team who could surprise some people.
Lastly, what is your favourite moment/memory from last season, and what are you looking forward to most this coming season?
My favourite moment from last season would have to be the Rangers' last home game against the Flyers. The Rangers won 4-3 in regulation to set up a "whoever wins makes the playoffs" game in Philadelphia. It was like a playoff game. Henrik Lundqvist made some unreal saves, and it was just a great atmosphere. I'm probably looking forward to just getting the season back on track, honestly. I love hockey and August is a horrible month for me!
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That guy actually thinks Boogaard was a good signing? That the enforcer is necessary in the “feisty” Atlantic division? Ooooookay…
by Rod Blogojevich on Aug 26, 2010 1:20 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
The enforcer is a very vital position in the rangers organization. We dont have many big guys on the team and our best player Gaborik has a huge history of getting hurt and bossed around by the big guys in the Atlantic, every time we play philly Gaborik has a bounty on his head.
I hate enforcers in hockey but without Boogaard the Rangers could not be a succesful team this year.
I wonder if the hard core American fan is more entrenched in the Slap Shot mentality of hockey and sees the entertainment and competitive value of the enforcer in a more positive light. Could it be that it is easier to identify with the enforcer punching someone’s lights out because you can imagine how it would feel. It is much harder, for someone who has never played the game to imagine how it would feel to make a backhand saucer pass 60 ft across the ice to the far post where your teammate goes backhand – forehand – roof daddy at 2 feet. I’m not saying American fans don’t like skill, but it’s like a virutouso concert pianist – people who play the piano a little can identify with their brillance far more than those who have never played.
I would venture to say that the casual hockey fan in the US might not miss the enforcer if he was gone.
All credibility was lost by the first sentence of the first answer to the first question, that’s gotta be a record. Goons are “vital”?… riiiiiight.
Yeah, Fortunato’s New Testament must be whatever Damien Cox writes or something. Doubt the guy has read anything reasonable by the new wave of competent bloggers like our own Kent, RCleave or RO, or guys like Willis, who are all against the presence of goons from a purely “I’d rather see my team win games, not fights” standpoint. I hope the Islanders skate circles around NYR this season after reading that. But hey, at least Jody Shelley will have a dancing partner in Boogaard in the one game both of them are actually dressed at the same time!
by Rod Blogojevich on Aug 26, 2010 10:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
On the goon front, I’m always open to being convinced. The problem is, the proponents of enforcers always rely on unproven assumptions. For instance:
You need a guy who can not only throw his weight around, but stop other guys from doing the same.
Sounds intuitive, but it’s little more than an assertion. If someone can prove to me, somehow, that Derek Boogaard’s mere presence dials down the aggression of the opposition to a non-trivial degree, then maybe I’ll agree there’s something to them.
Even if they convince me of that, however, they’ll have to go the extra mile and show me that the benefit to the club outstrips the obvious ways a guy like Boogaard hurts a team (shots against, chances against, goals against, penalty differential) whenever he plays.
by Kent Wilson on Aug 27, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Rod
I fail to see how me thinking that a goon for the Rangers is vital makes me an incompetent blogger.
Everyone has a difference in opinion, that doesn’t distinguish who knows what they are talking about, and who doesn’t.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Aug 27, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I never said you were incompetent, its just that your views on enforcers are more in line with MSM types or those who emulate them such as Wyshynski. Nothing wrong with that- I just believe in the statistical evidence that proves how useless enforcers are in the NHL. Then again, I do remember reading about how much better the Flames play after he fights… I forget who wrote it, but it was called the “Forsi” stat. Then again, I think its a stretch to lump Iggy in with the everyday enforcer.
by Rod Blogojevich on Aug 27, 2010 10:29 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess I'll weigh in
When you play in a division where other teams boast guys like Matt Cooke, Jody Shelley, Dan Carcillo, Chris Pronger, Michael Rupp, Colin White, Eric Godard, Arron Asham, etc, heavyweights are vital.
It’s not so much having a guy who stops other teams from throwing their weight around, but having a guy who can react if something happens. I have watched multiple Flyer Rangers games in which the Flyers were taking all kinds of liberties, and the Rangers (thanks to Brashear’s constant injuries) didn’t have the manpower to retaliate at all.
I watched Henrik Lundqvist get bumped and bruised about three times a day, and I watched other teams hit with high elbows, after the whistle and completely overrun the smaller Rangers in the scrum. I like the idea of having a guy like Boogaard who can take care of other teams who try to take liberties.
Equally note that I said that the enforcing role was “vital to the Rangers” not necessarily the rest of the league. Especially in the very tough Atlantic.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Aug 27, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Goons in decline - some legit players there
Boogie’s 2 career goals pale in comparison to everyone on that list; only Shelley and Godard similar players; the rest also bring something else.
I was speculating elsewhere last week about what type of player is the greater evil to the game – the dedicated fighter or the dirty $#!^ disturber like Cooke and Carcillo. While it may seem neccesary to carry a Boogie man to prevent guys like Cooke and Carcillo from running your stars; I really wonder whether the presence of an enforcer actually protects the stars anymore, those guys have no fear and appear to have no common sense or decency at times either.
But
if you don’t have a Boogie man on your roster, whats to stop Carcillo and Cooke from doing what they do 10 times a game?
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Aug 27, 2010 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Even having an enforcer won’t stop Cooke and Carcillo, especially since those guys get plenty of ice time with scoring lines which would murder Boogard’s line. If you’re a team like the Rangers which is pushing against the cap, signing Boogard for more than league minimum is kind of not smart.
I’m a fan of the Caps’ trade for DJ King, but only because King makes league minimum and the Caps have cap space to experiment with. I fully expect King to not be on the playoff roster.
by red army line on Aug 28, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
nothing
Nothing stops those guys is what I was trying to say -even the presence of a Boogard; because most of the time when confronted – they turtle anyhow.
What exactly are “liberties” everyone whose in favor of goons says that you need one to prevent “liberties” from being taken and then I watch games and don’t see any difference except that my team is fielding inferior hockey players then it otherwise could.
Assuming that liberties means cheapshots how does having a goon prevent them? Goons don’t skate with the guys most likely to be cheapshot (stars) so any response to the offender can only come on a subsequent shift in which case your star guy is still hurt/roughed up and the sole response is their worst hockey player (along with yours) is taking a 5min offsetting major. Sounds like a “win” for the other side to me. What’s more big goons only ever seem inclined to fight other big goons I’ve seen guys not primarily known for their cheapshots take cheapshots and the opposing goon doesn’t do squat to them all he does is go out and fight the other goon (who did nothing, ironically) which fails to be a detterent in my eyes.
The idea of having a guy on the other bench
who can retaliate (even if it’s not to the person who did the original cheap shot) is generally enough to keep guys from going overboard.
Obviously we all disagree that the Rangers “need” a goon. I happen to think that the enforcer role is important in the Atlantic. I like the idea of having a guy who has no problem dropping the gloves or defending his own players.
And in the Atlantic Cooke, Carcillo, Godard and Shelley are the kind of guys who will be on the Boogie man’s radar. Was the contract absurd? Yes, like I said above. But he fills a necessary role thats all.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Aug 27, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Proof?
How is Boogaard fighting another Worthless Goon Y (WGY) going to stop Cheapshot Artist X (CSAX) from cheapshotting Gaborik? Is WGY going to cry about it in the locker room and make CSAX feel so guilty that he won’t do it? No, no he’s not he’s gonna go out there and just nasty it up as much as he wants. Last season our own Goon McGrattan (AKA The Dancing Bear) only played in roughly 1/2 of the games including a lengthy period due to injury and in my opinion in terms of cheapshots the Flames took the difference between the games where he dressed and games where he didn’t was roughly zero.
I have no objection to fighting in hockey, sometimes emotions run high but it’s a hockey game not boxing or MMA so if your gonna fight fine but you better damn well have the hockey skills to play at an elite level like the NHL and the sad fact is that guys like Boogaard & Ivavans just don’t, they’ll be stars in a beer league but I doubt they could hang with ECHL’ers in terms of skill.
One last bit… what makes it worse is that this is Boogaard we’re talking about here. Boogaard isn’t a deterrent to cheapshots he encourages them because he’s most likely the one that’s going to perform them. Boogaard IS a cheapshoter. And this isn’t a case of “you like them if they are on your team” I would want to throw rotton garbage on Boogaard if Sutter had signed him that’s how loathsome and untalented he is.
I was at the game where he gave Brandon Prust a behind the play hit, completely unprovoked, that resulted in a concussion in the last minute of a decided game. He wasn’t out there protecting/defending anyone he was searching for someone to injure… guys like him shouldn’t be allowed to play in the NHL let alone make a million dollars a year to do so.
+1000
I’d like to point out that while Joe is the editor of Blue Shirt Banter and one of its more prolific writers, he does not necessarily represent the view point of everyone there. There are many of us that recognize the pure goons for what they are: detrimental black holes to a roster. In the Rangers’ case, not only is Boogaard hurting the net scoring of the team, but he’s also affecting the salary cap more than his thug peers.
Game is faster-speed needed not goons
Speed is the most important aspect of the game now. Goons will just draw penalties, have a couple big defencemen a couple bigger checking/hitting forwards, and the rest go for ‘speed’-you will burn by the goons. I’d rather have a fourth line of prospects and not a 4 minutes a game goon who spends 20 minutes a game in the penalty box. It slows the game down, watch UFA , UFC, or WWE if you want. Fights will happen in Hockey but I’d rather see bigger players who can score and skate and play 12 minutes a game get a chance. Just my opinion, nothing more than that, I agree seeing Tim Hunter and Semenko hit the ice at the same time was guaranteed fireworks and entertaining. My point is the game is faster now, go for speedy players with talent even if a prospect.
Until the instigator rule is abolished, the presence of goons to “prevent liberties” is a moot point, bottom line.
by Rod Blogojevich on Aug 27, 2010 8:18 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Stuck on the fence
Over the needing a goon debate . I know many nights i’ve seen where Zetterburg and Dats sure wish the Wings had somebody who could step out and knock the snot out of the cheap shot guys . Who wait till after the whistle when having speed don’t help but Rod is correct the Instigator rule stops the Goon or tuff guy from stopping that crap .
I don’t know how many times come playoffs i’ve heard the words the Wings are too soft and lack the bully factor . But hey they have won the cup a few times so maybe the Goon is over rated ??
Show me the CUP
I’m with Kent on this-a “goon” is fine as long as he can actually play hockey. Asham would have been a perfect signing for the Flames.
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Go Flames Go
I see Asham as more of a guy who is willing to fight but not on the roster to fight and only fight like Boogard..
by red army line on Aug 28, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly. He is there to play hockey, but he brings the gooinish element. He’s the kind of player Daz is in love with and it wouldn’t kill us to see him getting minutes. Too bad.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Aug 28, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m personally more a fan of the “agitators” like Cooke and Downie. While Avery is just unprofessional off the ice as well, I bet a lot of agitators are good guys off-ice as well.
by red army line on Aug 28, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Thank God we have Ivanans, without him the Flames would be dead meat when we play the ruthlessly tough Atlantic teams.
by Rod Blogojevich on Aug 29, 2010 8:00 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Goons are pointless, Tough Guy players are useful
The difference to me is what the player can do in addition to fighting. If the player can only fight, then he’s a “goon” and has very little value to the team in my opinion. Players like Asham have a lot more value.
The ultimate example to me has always been the late, great Bob Probert. Despite being known primarily as a fighter, he had 384 career points in 935 career games. I don’t have Corsi, Zone Starts, etc, but in his first 9 seasons he averaged a GVT of 3.0 – which is at least a serviceable regular player on the 3rd or 4th line.
The biggest argument against players like Boogard are that they deplete the talent level on the ice and provide little “proven” impact to team success. A team can definitely add toughness without having to completely sacrifice the ability to play hockey.
Ivanans (or as we’re calling him here at M&G, Thing 2) is the perfect example of the goon, who is a complete detriment to his team’s ability to control the play and drive possession.
Ryan
Matchsticks & Gasoline, Sports Opinionated, Front Office Fans, Pink Shirt Wise Guys: Italian Soccer Podcast & occasionally even Puck Prospectus. Yes, I'm a sports-writing whore...don't hate me.
by SO_RyanP on Aug 29, 2010 9:21 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
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