Flames Bring Back Jokinen, Confusion & Anger Ensues
by Hayley on Jul 1, 2010 5:04 PM PDT
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PrintThe rumours surfaced earlier this afternoon and were confirmed shortly thereafter--centreman Olli Jokinen, who was swapped to the Rangers for Ales Kotalik and Chris Higgins at this year's trade deadline after he failed to meet expectations as the club's first-line centre, is back; Darryl Sutter signed the Finn to a two-year contract today shortly after signing winger Alex Tanguay to a one-year deal, claiming he never should have traded the centre whom he coveted for so long in the first place. After taking a few hours to absorb the news, there are certainly more questions than answers; here are my thoughts:
While the dollar figures for Jokinen's contract this time around are much more agreeable at two years, $3M/per, any money saved by sending Kotalik to Europe or to the minors will essentially be cancelled out. While it's possible that Jokinen will be a better bet to perform to the standards stipulated by his contract at $3M than he was at $5.5M, it's still a big risk. Jokinen is thirty years old and proved in his last season with the Flames that he can't handle tough competition, and if Brent Sutter and Co. learnt anything from that experience, they'll have to manage his minutes accordingly.
With Tanguay back in the fold, there could likely be less pressure for Jokinen to set up Jarome Iginla both at even strength and on the powerplay, if they are paired together once again. The biggest question mark raised by this signing is the depth chart at centre. Do Langkow, Iginla, and Tanguay or possibly Bourque take on the tough minutes as a unit, leaving the lesser opponents to Jokinen and whomever his linemates may be? At $3.5M, Matt Stajan suddenly becomes an awfully expensive third line centre, although the role and its accompanying minutes are probably better suited to him, and while having Mikael Backlund centering the fourth line makes sense from an ice-time distribution standpoint, will limited minutes affect his development? How much time will he see on the powerplay with the addition of Tanguay and Jokinen?
While Jokinen underachieved last season, he was certainly not the only one; the onus will be on nearly every forward donning the Flaming 'C' next season to up their respective games. Considering the way things unfolded during Jokinen's last stint in Calgary, I'm more than willing to pass judgement on this signing before the new season even begins, but the fact remains that it is still July 1st and the Flames likely aren't finished augmenting their roster. At the moment, I consider this yet another case of the Sutter equilibrium--one good move negated by an utterly nonsensical one--and although I have my (well-established) doubts, both parties are more than welcome to prove me wrong.
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You guys haven't lynched Darryl Sutter yet?
How much nepotism and “loyalty” do you guys need to suffer through to understand that the man is a raving lunatic?
Your team is old, and getting older. Tons of movement, no upgrades. Matt Stajan at 3.5mil? Not trying to hate on you at all, quite the opposite. The Sutters have it made in the shade in Calgary. You’re pooched until the Saddledome is purged of the Sutter’s familial funk.
In Burke We Trust
How much nepotism and "loyalty" do you guys need to suffer through to understand that the man is a raving lunatic?
I’m not sure where you get the impression that we don’t already know this.
Seconded. And as I’m sure you’re all too familiar with, the matter is well out of our control, beyond refusal to purchase tickets and/or fan rallies. I’m not making any excuses for Darryl Sutter here—I don’t like this move, and it’s just another in a series of ill-advised trades and signings that have seen the team get older and more expensive in recent years—but I’m not willing to write it off immediately.
Everyone here is cognizant of the state of the organization; it’s not as if the majority of Flames fans still have blind faith in Sutter to lead us to the promise land, but this is not a new problem. The reason some people are still tolerant of Darryl’s pricey screw-ups is because the team had shown improvement under his direction, an encouraging sign for those who watched the team struggle repeatedly throughout the nineties and early two thousands. Until upper management no longer tolerates said screw-ups, we will likely be forced to retain a certain amount of resignation.
And how do you lynch the guy? Like really.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jul 1, 2010 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions
drinking the koolaid
Don’t know what the owners and Ken King are drinking – this is embarrassing. Tanguay a value addition, but Jokinen is hard to understand. As you say – the team just got older again – and they were too old last year. They now have 3 guys who are not quite good enough to be a #2 centre on a contending team for a total of $11m. Their best forward prospect now will get about 6 minutes of ice a game – stupid.
They have gone completely in the wrong direction – they should have traded off the veterans and started the rebuild now. I know I’ll get arguments ( and have in the past) that rebuilding is a waste of time and sick to watch. What is more difficult to watch is a team spent to the cap that is old and gets out played and outhustled on a regular basis.
I guess the only good news is that this team will be big sellers at the deadline.
They have gone completely in the wrong direction – they should have traded off the veterans and started the rebuild now
Why?
by R O on Jul 1, 2010 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Because one sub-par season means that all the players over 30 are useless.
The 4th Line Blog
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by Justin Azevedo on Jul 1, 2010 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions
no
We’ve had this argument before – 3 successive seasons of declining performance from the team and your highest paid players – who are now over 30. That’s not a sub par season – it is aging. How many players play to even close to their career average after 32 ? Iginla and Langkow are 33 and 34 when this season begins, and they are your “best” players. Tanguay has declined 3 years in a row , so has Jokinen. Kipper had 3 years of declining performance before last year, and while his bounce back was awesome, I am skeptical about his ability to repeat. If he doesn’t then they are in big trouble.
Reuniting Tanguay and Langkow with Iginla and thinking that they can reproduce the magic they had 4 years ago is a pipe dream That as a first line will get devoured by the Sedins, Kane and Toews or Thornton’s line. “Sheltering” Jokinen on the second line sounds palatable, but they (w Hagman and Bourque I’d guess) will have to be awesome to make up for the fact that the “first line” might be the 8th best in the conference.
Where is the improvement coming from ? Will Jokinen be better than Jokinen / Kotalik? Will Tanguay be better than Eric Nystrom – offensively he might be, but he sure will get more chance to be in offensive position than Nystrom. Generally, improving players are 25 and under. Most players have their best years 25-30, and if they are really consistent can have only slight decline 301-35. Who is under 25 ? Backlund is the only one at forward.if they are dropping 25 yr old Dawes… On D Gio and White at 25 – do you expect significant improvement from them ? Not likely – they were already pretty good.
I expect development from White and Gio. Jokinen has less expectaions, and will be put in a better position to succeed. Tanguay scored at a .8PPG clip in Montreal, and was dogged by nagging injuries last season. Your position of wanting to trade actual NHLers who can still dominate in the right circumstances is absurd when the expected return would be prospects and picks. Personally, I’ll take the established guy over the 22 year old AHLer or the 2nd round pick.
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by Justin Azevedo on Jul 1, 2010 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions
other than the salary
How will Jokinen be put in a better position to succeed? Because he is paid less and “expectations” are lower ? Calgary acquired him in the first place because they thought Langkow wasn’t good enough any longer to be the #1 centre. So now Jokinen is your #3 centre and Daymond is back at #1 – at least by pay, how does that make your team any better ?
Tanguay played 80 games last year and got 37 points, after getting 41in just 50 games in MTL – that was the injury year – you think he has 60 pts in him ?
He will be playing easier comp.
Yes, I do think he has 60 points in him. I’d be happy with 50.
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by Justin Azevedo on Jul 1, 2010 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions
shake head, then face palm
then repeat. shake head, then face palm. then repeat.
I am trying to spin the signing of Jokinen in a positive way in my head and i just can’t. even at the reduced rate, it was proven over his tenure here that he didn’t mesh with Iginla or Bourque or any other fwd line. he was not able to contribute points on the power play and had limited success in the penalty shot (he has two moves).
WHY I ASK DID WE BRING HIM BACK?
Eric Duhatchek tweeted it best in that “Darryl is stubborn, and he wants to prove that he was right” (paraphrased).
Tanguay, at his reduced rate, is a risk that I am open to taking. 1 yr, at a reasonable rate. Perhaps he will recover some magic with Iginla. But Jokinen, who NEVER had any magic with Iginla suddenly finds it?
Pierre McGuire called the Tanguay trade “an act of a desperate organization”, I would call the Jokinen trade “an act of a team that wants to miss the playoffs – even finish last to get the 1st overall draft pick:”
If this does happen, make sure Darryl is not around to trade away the 1st rounder for another failure.
shake head, then face palm…..
Throw away the name.
We signed a 50 point player for $3 million. For comparison sake, Bourque at 58 points signed a deal for $3.3 million. Phil Kessel was signed for $5.4 million on the strength of a 60 point season in 08-09 that was 23 points above his previous career high.
The only reason this signing is a problem is that it is Olli Jokinen. Unfortunately, that is a considerable problem to face.
interesting point
but Matthew Lombardi had 53 pts. Keep him, Prust and our 1st round pick and we aren’t having this conversation.
by Reggie Dunlop on Jul 1, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
If we could rewrite history, I’d agree completely. In the here and now, however, we deal with the cards we have in play.
Course, I’d love to go way back and draft Martin Brodeur instead of Trevor Kidd too.
ya...
don’t get us started when talking about Draft picks….. yeeeesh
by Reggie Dunlop on Jul 1, 2010 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the gap between Bourque and Jokinen is vast. I suppose Jokinen has the advantage when he’s ten or twenty feet from the net with the puck but Bourque is so much better at all the things that get the puck into that ten-to-twenty foot zone on a player’s stick with time to shoot.
And I still think Bourque’s too highly paid, I’m not sure he’s all that on the PP (though at $3.3 I suppose I’m just being too greedy)
by R O on Jul 1, 2010 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not going to argue that, but the market says that Jokinen is a $3 millionish player, and that is what we signed. The biggest problem he had last year was that he was a $3 million player with double the price tag. In fact, it is that salary that really interests me for two reasons.
First, I wonder how many fans, and ESPECIALLY the media will realize that Jokinin makes half of what he did in the past? TSN especially seems to have it out for Sutter and the Flames, and it will be curious if they lock themselves into judging the man based on his 09-10 salary?
Second, how will Brent handle this? Jokinen is not being paid like a first line player anymore. Might this allow him to feel like he doesn’t need to try and shoehorn Jokinen onto that top line? Give Jokinen softer minutes, and he should live up to his contract.
Yeah the nice thing is now Langkow is the most highly paid centre (by salary and cap). There is no question if you go by that metric.
Wasn’t a fan of Iggy opining today about wanting to play with Jokinen and Tanguay but he’s not the boss.
Unfortunately the boss was incredibly biased against Langkow. Even after Jokinen left Lanks didn’t get his due crack at the PVP line.
Dayum, I remember it like it was like yesterday. After that short December losing streak the Flames tried Lanks and Iggy together, with Glencross on port side. They started slow (but brok even) and then dominated by chances, shots, flow of play, eyeballing it, everything IIRC.
Then that one game in CBJ where we dominated the game but McElhinney let in a bad-angle shot (though that wasn’t the point where even I lost confidence in him, that was later on in ANA where he drifted off his nets completely) and suddenly Lanks is shit out of luck.
Then Iggy has his 07/08-esque run there, dominating COL, VAN and PIT with terrible players. But, we lose some of those, then the losing streak comes and that’s the season.
Damn. If Lanks and Iggy had stuck it out from the beginning of the year on, we could have made some noise. At the very least, we wouldn’t have bent over against the other team’s best night in night out. I wonder if Brent will see reason and start his best players at every position against their peers on the other team.
If he does, we will be competitive. If not, we introduce possible outcomes of pain in the range of reasonable expectations.
by R O on Jul 1, 2010 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed. He is no longer being paid to be a first line center-thus he should not be forced to play as one. However, I have that nagging feeling that he will still be #1 on the depth chart. I’ve hit step 7, and will try to think positive about this. Res, great point.
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by Justin Azevedo on Jul 1, 2010 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions
The beginning of the end of the Flames was in 08-09 when Keenan was a f’ing idiot and broke Iginla and Langkow up so that he could put Bertuzzi on that top line. If Langkow’s time is not up with Calgary (and something has to be done given we have too many top-9 centres now) I want him back with Iginla.
I would not be surprised if Jokinen is shifted to the wing. Stajan has a limited NTC, and there is no way he’s waving it (just started today) and Lanks has a NTC. When you add in the fact that our only high level forward prospect (who will be on the team this year, playing 4th line minutes and not developing) is a centre, it’s doubtful that any of the the centermen are being moved, and Stajan is way to expensive to be a 3rd line centre. Kinda like Staios as a number si-oh, yeah. Shit.
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by Justin Azevedo on Jul 1, 2010 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice?
It is nice that your unquestioned #1 centre is a career average 20 goal 49.5 pt centre who is coming off a 14 goal 37 pt campaign and is 34 years old ? You’ve got way too much love for Langkow. I hope he plays all year with Iggy – and at the end of the year when you are wondering why this team is looking old ; I’m sure you’ll find some way to blame it on Mike Keenan and Todd Bertuzzi.
Res, you’re love Sutter is strong and unwavering.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Jokinen was a 50 point player last year because he spent a lot of time on first lines and power play units. It’ll be interesting to see what he does if he lands behind both Stajan and Langkow in ice time (as he should, though Im not quite convinced he will).
Frankly, it’s not quite the fact that Jokinen re-signed that annoys me. It’s the intervening fiasco. The trade for Kotalik was awful and it’s saddled the team with a wholly unnecessary, toxic asset. One that has yet to be expunged and continues to hamper the Flames budget. Everything about that was stupid at the time and now farcical in hindsight.
I guess all you can do now is look at the team for what it is now. Not it’s past, but it’s future. Because all the hand wringing and worrying in the world over what occured this season past, does not change that this is our team going forward.
Sometimes you gotta just have a short memory.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jul 1, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, Joker isn’t going to be a third-line guy. They’re going to toss him back up there with Iginla and Tanguay in the hopes that having a decent playmaker was the missing spark from last year. I’d put money on it. I honestly wonder if another move is coming… whichever one of the centers that ends up playing on the third-line is going to be rather overpaid for that position on the depth chart. Plus I can’t imagine having Stajan and Tanguay on the same line… just don’t think their talents would mesh that well.
Let’s play linemaker…
Tanguay – Jokinen – Iginla
Hagman – Langkow – Bourque
Glencross – Stajan – Moss
Sutter/Ivanans – Backlund – Jackman
is what it’s looking like now… although I question whether having Backlund play with the humps is really the best place for him and his development. It didn’t work for Boyd afterall.
Yeah I don’t necessarily like that 4th line. And honestly I don’t think Daz’ kid should be in the franchise. I agree with you about Backlund, but as long as Daz is in charge they are going to waste that kid. In the end, he’ll leave in a trade and succeed somewhere else.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Unless you can show a reason why Brett Sutter should not be in this franchise other than the fact his last name is “Sutter”, then that opinion is worthless.
Actually, that entire post is worthless as it is based on mindless hate for the name Sutter.
Res, you’re love Sutter is strong and unwavering.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
A person blinded by hate is incapable of having an open mind.
That Sutter has made some pretty big mistakes recently does not validate the opinion that every move into the future will also be a mistake.
Dude, Res…Daz has made some momumental blunders in the past two in a half years. I used to blindly follow as well and was a huge fan of the guy. But imo ever since he stepped down as coach he has made one mistake after another and the organization has let him blame one person after another while he continues on his arrogant way never taking the blame for anything. This guy is unfortunately setting the franchise backwards and ownership is just standing by deferring to Ken King who is just as enamored with Daz as you are. In the process the Flames are become a punchline to the media and the hockey world and scaring off potential free agents in the process. This is a fact that is apparent outside of Calgary. The cronyism, the employment of family, the arrogance, the old school tough love, all of it is just creating a toxic mess. I’m not blinded by hate buddy, I’m just speaking the truth…something some Flames fans don’t want to accept because of what happened in the 90s. Idiot I am not, so check yourself before you call me that.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
The words of a zealot. Nothing is ever black and white, even though you are attempting to paint anyone who does not share the same extreme hate that you do as suffering from an equally extreme love.
Also, I never called you an idiot. I called you a person blinded by hate – and you are – and as such it is completely impossible for you to judge anything the Flames do without extreme bias.
No different than an idiot blaming everything on Sutter, eh?
See above. Though you don’t specifically single me out, Im assuming I fall in that idiot category. I’ll try and be a little less hateful for you Res. But we’ll finish this conversation up a year or two from now when the franchise is really stuck in a rut.
If I’m wrong, I have no problem admitting I was that. And for the record, I don’t have much of an issue with the moves of bringing Joker and Tangs back. Those moves are fair and legit when you don’t look at them in combination with everything Sutter has done in the last 2 and half years.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
ahh, fair enough. My apologies on the idiot crack.
The question though is why are you looking at them in combination of everything else? The original trades were bad, no doubt. Can’t change that history. But why let the past colour moves that you are willing to admit independently are good?
And there is little doubt that this season is Sutter’s last stand. Regardless of the viability of bringing Jokinen back, optically it will look bad until shown otherwise. If the team does not do well this year, Sutter’s presence becomes untenable.
Personally, I’d rather cheer for success than failure, and I especially would love to see the smiles wiped off the faces of our rivals and the morons in the media.
Oh and we found are goon for the year.
Raitis Ivanans is a now a Flame
Over/Under on how many times he’s a healthy scratch, I’ll set the bar at 45.
I'm CofOranje for the next month.
HUP HOLLAND HUP!
still unsure what I think
My first reaction was of the “WTF” variety. If you like Jokinen, why trade him and take on Kotalik’s disturbing cap hit?
Now, I’m trying to ignore the back and forth nature of the deal and just evaluate the Flames situation at forward.
Would a first line of Langkow, Tanguay and Iginla be a bad thing? What about a second line of Jokinen, Bourque and GlenX. Stajan is an expensive third liner and Backlund needs some playing time, but depth isn’t a terrible thing. The only thing I can positively say is that Jokinen and Iginla need to be split up, while Tanguay needs to be on Iggy’s line.
Either way – VERY weird deal.
Ryan
Sports Opinionated, Front Office Fans, Pink Shirt Wise Guys: Italian Soccer Podcast & occasionally even Puck Prospectus. Yes, I'm a sports-writing whore...don't hate me.
Darren Dreger says the Flames are done for tonight.
Sutter won’t be able to sleep tonight nor will any Flames fan.
I'm CofOranje for the next month.
HUP HOLLAND HUP!
I’ll sleep just fine, actually, and I’m betting Sutter will too.
Hell, I think I am half a fan of the Jokinen signing because it gives all the fatalists something to worry about.
True, I like what Dreger said earlier that the Coaching Staff, Management and most importantly the Locker Room all wanted Olli back.
I’m willing to give him a second chance.
My boss told me to put all the Jokinen merch in the back room (At this time I wasn’t aware that Olli was hired) and then a guy comes in and asks do we have any Jokinen shirts and I’m like yeah I just put some in the back can I ask why?
Oh didn’t you hear the Flames resigned him. Jaw drops immediately
I'm CofOranje for the next month.
HUP HOLLAND HUP!
ya...
don’t get us started when talking about Draft picks….. yeeeesh
A little bit of hilarity courtesy of Yahoo Sports-
June 30 2010
“Here’s a glance at what Canada’s six NHL teams are looking to accomplish when free agency officially begins at noon ET on July 1:
Calgary Flames This should come as no surprise: The Flames need a No. 1 center to set up power winger Jarome Iginla(notes). Just like last season, the season before that and the season before that (and the season before that). Calgary’s current top centers, Matt Stajan(notes) and Daymond Langkow(notes), simply don’t cut it; Stajan is a second-liner at best, while Langkow turns 34 in September and is slowing down.
Problem is, the Flames have less than $7 million to spend, and need to re-sign defenseman Ian White(notes) as well as at least three other depth forwards. Not to mention, Calgary is banking on Swedish rookie Henrik Karlsson(notes) to back up Miikka Kiprusoff(notes). Karlsson, 26, is a 6-foot-6 specimen who starred in Sweden last year, but he hasn’t played a second in the NHL.
Another problem: Beyond ex-Flame Matthew Lombardi(notes), there’s not a lot out of there in the way of UFA centers. It’s not like Calgary is going to bring back Olli Jokinen."
(http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=sm-canadaufa0630)
oh man….
That’s hilarious.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Jul 1, 2010 11:09 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The tone hear is so much more level-headed
I think Jokinen for 3 million is at the very least worth a shot. I know that he is coming in to be a point getter and that is pretty much all he brings, and that is what he is being paid for. I think Jokinen can be a .80PPG player. Quite confidently. He was shooting a career low last year with Calgary and he wasn’t way off that number. I believe that Jokinen can be counted on to get 60-65pts and not a lot of teams are paying 3 million for that these days.
One thing I am concerned about is the love affair with Langkow. I agree that Langkow is likely our ‘best overall’ centre, but I don’t think that automatically makes him our first line center. I think the idea of having a more balanced attack is a good one.
Lines that interest me would be:
Hagman-Stajan-Iginla
Tanguay-Joker-Bourque
GlenX-Lankow-Moss
Give them even minutes and adjust accordingly. I know we were complaining last year with Olli in the line-up, but his pay cut pays essentially for Hagman. Upping Nystrom into Tanguay is a no brainer and only 400k more than resigning Nyzerman.
Would have loved to see Dawes around for the fourth line instead of Ivanis (what does he bring?)
I am 96% positive that Tanguay will be playing with Jarome. He is the only true elite passer the team has and he can carry the puck with the best of them. I would much rather see him on the first line than Hagman, who is often under water against stronger competition.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jul 1, 2010 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Jokinen ppg trend
06-07 – 91 pts 82 games= 1.11
07-08 – 71 pts 82 games= 0.87
08-09 – 57 pts 76 games = 0.75
09-10 – 50 pts 82 games = 0.61
Career 586 pts 881 games = 0.66
So last year he dropped below his career average. He had an 89 point year as well as the 91 – so both of those 1.1 ppg years really pulling the average up.
If his role is not first line centre – yes that maybe gets him away from the shut down D on the road; but it also reduces his PP time and overall ice time – how does a 32 year old reverse a steady trend of decline like this with less ice time? I think the best that you can hope for from guys over 30 is to keep the curve flat. 0.66 gives you 54 pts if he is healthy.
So, this is what we've got so far...
C Joker
LW Raitis Ivanans
Alex Tanguay
RW Tim Jackman
G Henrik Karlsson
And we’ve lost:
LW Nystrom to the Wilds
Did I miss anybody? I like Nystrom, and I do not know much Ivanans, Jackman or even Karlsson for that matter (other then Ivanans is some tough guy, Karlsson is a 26 years old goalie)… should this be an improvement?
other subtractions
Dawes – no room for him unless you are subtracting Kotalik.
Higgins- same as above
Conroy – retirement
MacGrattan – even up for Ivanans
Toskala
Once White is signed – there will have to be another subtraction.
Once White is signed – there will have to be another subtraction.
Come on Staios!
The 4th Line Blog
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by Justin Azevedo on Jul 1, 2010 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh please god let it be Staois!!
by Jeremywilhelm on Jul 2, 2010 1:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
How can we ‘rightfully’ get rid of Kotalik and/or Higgins and keep Dawes? Is Conroy going to retire for sure? is that to make room for Backlund? I suppose Karlsson is the replacement for Toskala…
And come on, Steve Staios? Steve F-*-in’ Staios? seriously? Again, how do we get rid of him to keep White? Is there enough Cap space?
I guess I got nothin’ but a bunch of questions…
As of right now, there is 2.1 million in cap space available. Get rid of Staios, then you still have 1.5 even if White gets some unreasonable sum.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Jul 2, 2010 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions
not quite
That’s with 11 forwards and 6 D. You are going to carry 13 and 7 at least.
Ivanis is $575, Backlund $1.27 – assume White at $2.3 and you are $1.63 over.
Dump Staios ($2.7) and replace with Pelech (850) and you have a razor thin 22 000 in cap space.
That is assuming Dawes and Kotalik are among the 13. More action to come I’d say.
yes
Just clarifying that with that 2.1 that Justin said – there are 3 positions to fill and only one of them is a league minimum ( Ivanis),
Dawes done
Flash forward to February when the New York Rangers trade Derek Boogard and Brandon Prust to Sutter for Jokinen.
Sutter is pushing Jokinen into the fire
Sutter won’t budge on his belief in Jokinen, perhaps there is resentment toward the fans for giving him such a rough time. Sutter talked him into a pay cut but he’s still a millionaire, 3 mill—Bob’s your uncle. Why Sutter ever made the inquiry to have him return is baffling. Brendan Morrison would have been a better/cheaper third line acquisition. Morrison had 42 points for Washington. What the heck you could have Kotalik and Jokinen packaged into another trade back to NY soon.
The Tanguay acquisition looks good and he won’t have the pressure of the fans to deal with, all the animosity will be heaped on Jokinen. Her’s a chance to prove the fans wrong Jokinen. Can we afford all these players?
A little cap space as breathing room, next some teams will make moves to accommodate their big ticket free agents, a second wave of trades is coming, be nice to have some cap space for it. Whats the hold up on Higgins? No money left?
Morrison had 42 points playing for a stacked offensive team in a flat out offensive system. Jokinen had 50 primarily for a defence-first team in a tougher conference that struggled to score all year.
And the holdup on Higgins is that he doesn’t want to return. Rumours have him going to Florida right now, which is a pretty good sign that he’s not interested in playing under pressure.
I just saw this: http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/Flames+move+Jokinen+linked+injury+fears/3228520/story.html
Has anyone else heard anything about Langkow possibly being out for good?
I am not only Lanks’ boss, I am also his best friend. Cronyism, gotta love it!
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
What in the hell is that supposed to mean?
And if it means what I think you are implying, you are dead wrong. Teams cannot fake injury concerns. If Langkow is out for any significant length of time, league doctors get involved to ensure that a player is not being buried that way on IR.
I actually listened to the presser, and I didn’t get any inappropriate vibes at all. I didn’t hear anything beyond the genuine concern of someone for another person’s health. I have plenty of problems with the boss, but his comments re: Langkow were absolutely fine, IMO.
by Robert Cleave on Jul 2, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Indeed. And if Langkow’s long term status is in doubt, this is actually a devastating loss to the Flames, no matter what side of the keep him/trade him coin you are on.
A player with a serious neck injury is not tradable. Flames lose there.
Langkow is one of our better defensive forwards, and is capable of covering up for the mistakes of his linemates. Even if he didn’t bounce back offensively, he had upside.
From both the points of view of Langkow as a human being and Langkow as an asset to the organization, his injury is a major concern.
Not inferring anything shady going on, Sutter’s right on this one. The article just quotes Darryl as saying “Langkow is a friend of mine.” Take what you want from that.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Agreed
It is a major loss – even though I was on the trade him side of the ledger. If healthy he is still an excellent defensive player, faceoff guy etc. On a team that is a Cup contender – he would be an awesome addition that would garner some great young assets.
Here is hoping he recovers soon for his sake.
Well the Wings kind of did that with Maltby he was hurt but could have played but was asked to go on IR .
So could a player say my knee ect is hurting and go on IR long term . Do i think that Lanks is going this route or that Sutter would ask him. No
Show me the CUP
According to Sutter’s presser today, he is still talking to Conroy, which makes sense now that Lanks might not be healthy to start the season. Conroy is easily the second best tough-minutes centre behind Langkow, even at 38 yrs. old. He also said he tried to get Mayers back, but he wouldn’t sign. Thank the lord. Although Ivanans/Jackman are probably just as bad if not worse.
It sucks that Higgins signed in Florida, especially for $1.6M. Ouch.
If the extra Cs are a backup plan due to Langk’s injury, that would put Conroy playing with the dead weight, which is significantly preferable to Backlund being stuck with them.
by SmellOfVictory on Jul 2, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed, but Conroy is and should be ahead of Backlund on the depth chart and is more capable of taking on tough comp.
Still could. It looks like Sutter is still going for the “balanced attack” look, which means ice time for 3rd/4th lines could be pretty equal. Ideally, whichever one Backlund is on would be the sheltered one, and Conroy gets the grunt work (and at least one of the two enforcers sits in the press box the entire season).
by SmellOfVictory on Jul 2, 2010 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I read a lot about “assets” when managing a hockey team and color me unsophisticated but it’s all a load of shit to me. We’re building winning teams here, not managing a portfolio.
In any case, I think there’s too much fixation and whinging on rebuilding and getting maximum return via trade. Please. The ultimate point of having a player under contract is having him play for you and help you win, it seems like nobody sees this and instead value players based on how much they can return in trade.
I mean I love the trade route as much if not more than most fans but that’s putting the cart before the horse.
Actually
Guilty ! I think I am the one who has been most consistenly using terms like that since the season ended – assets and return- so don’t blame everyone.
The question is what your expectations are and what you are willing to tolerate. If you would rather have another 38-43 win season that may or may not make the playoffs – then by all means hang on to the veteran players who are your “best” players. That’s not what I want – I want them to contend for a Cup. This group of “best players” has been together a long time and has failed to get out of the first round in the last 5 seasons. Their performance as a team and individually has declined in the last 3, and all the data points to the fact that players don’t improve after their 30th birthday. If this organization had a top 5 rated group of prospects that are 1-3 years away, I would not advocate trading the veterans either. But they don’t , there are only 3 roster players under 25 and the farm/draft group is really quite thin. What I see in the very near future is a rapidly aging team with no significant prospects. By this time next year I am concerned that Regehr, Sarich, Langkow and Kiprusoff will not be as good of players as they are today. That means both the immediate on ice performance will be down, but also the longer term performance will be affected for years to come because you failed to acquire more prospects for those veterans.
If you care about the team you look beyond just this year and you don’t get too attached to players who have been good for you in the past. I am willing to tolerate a couple of 30 win seasons if it means rebuilding around a new core of improving players. You are going to have the down years either way – you can pay now or pay later.
IIRC the best odds you could have gotten for Stanley Cup winners at the start of the season is 3:1, I believe those went to either CHI or S.J. The odds might have even been worse than that actually.
Anyways the individual odds don’t mean much but the upper bound is kind of telling, you could be the absolute best team in the league and the reasonable expectation is still for another team to win.
So call me a settler but I’ll settle for competiveness. Elite-ness is no guarantee, and if it really requires going through fire and brimstone for a decade, no thanks.
Re: this part:
I am willing to tolerate a couple of 30 win seasons if it means rebuilding around a new core of improving players. You are going to have the down years either way – you can pay now or pay later.
Having a couple 30 win seasons does not in any way, shape or form guarantee anything other than sure suckage now and uncertainty tomorrow. You are overrating prospects highly, as a group the majority of them will fail, no matter how highly rated they are. Pretty much the #1 predictor of success at the NHL level is previous success at the NHL level, that’s why veteran players are categorically all better players than rookies.
Re: this part
Their performance as a team and individually has declined in the last 3
Verifiably false. The 08/09 skating squad was dominant, they were torpedoed by goaltending. If you want to know how that kind of team ends its season in an alternate universe, look at the 05/06 Oilers.
Re: this part:
This group of "best players" has been together a long time and has failed to get out of the first round in the last 5 seasons.
Shit happens. The Sharks have had way better squads than the Flames and barely had better success until last year. Devils too. Shit happens. You need a lot of luck to advance in the post-season.
by R O on Jul 2, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
so
08-09 team was 4 pts better than 07-08 because of YAAAY ! 4 fewer overtime losses. Dominant ? 6 goals more scored than allowed ? Big flippin deal.Torpedoed by goaltending you say – agreed – Kipper was bad that year – don’t you think that could happen again ? Like maybe this year ? My evaluation that they slid based on the fact that they were quite easily handled by a very young Blackhawk team in the playoffs. Forget luck – make your own luck. 5 years in a row ? Shit happens ? The Sharks have won 4 series in the same time that we are 0 fer and made the playoffs every year.
My contention is that this years squad is not any better than the one that faded down the stretch. Yes they have added Tanguay – but all of the significant contributors are one year older and not likely to improve their contribution.
Iginla was the Flames best forward when they went to the final when he was 26. He is still their best forward and is 33. Is there anyone close to that age going to replace him ?
NHL players careers follow a distinct path. From 20-25 they improve; from 26-30 or 31 they have their career years and for the most part hold steady; after 31 they begin to decline. Good ones decline slowly. Very, very rarely does the decline reverse and then it is usually only a single season of reversing the trend before it begins again.
At forward Iginla. Langkow, Jokinen, Tanguay, Kotalik and Hagman all north of 30. Bourque, Glencross, Moss and Stajan are all in that prime years group – these are their best years, you’ve likely seen their ceiling or very close to it. The odds are that Moss is the only one in that group can be expected to be better this year than last and only because of injury – but that could be offset by an injury to someone else. . So 2 forward spots left – to evaluate Backlund and the goon. We know the answer there. Backlund will be better than he was. The numbers say that it is most likely that 2 of the 12 forwards will be better than last year – 4 should be about the same and 6 will more likely than not be worse. Hardly a formula for fixing the broken offence.
On defence White and Gio are in that transition period at 25 – are they still improving or have we seen their ceiling ? Bouwmeester has been better than he was last year – he’d better improve, I’d hate to think his caereer decline starts at 26. . Pardy is 26 and may be a late bloomer, but he will never be a difference maker. The rest of them are on the wrong side of the hill. Call it almost even on the back end, and thats generous.
Kipper scares me the most – he was brilliant last year, but he had struggled previously. If he was 28 or 29 I wouldn’t worry, but he turns 34 this fall. Can he keep it up ? I say that there is a 50/50 chance he is as good this year as he was last , and probably 1 in 4 chance for 11-12.
Look at 11-12 – just 14 players under contract for 50 million average age 31 – might be reduced to 30.5 if they can ink Gio and White – then they would have 16 players at about $57 million. Maybe $5m in cap space for 6 players. The top 5 players one year older and less productive. A majority of the next 5 best players also one year further down the slide too. Who is left under 25 ? Only Backlund. That group looks like a 25 win squad in 11-12 !!
I hope and pray that the AHL rookies this year prove the evaluators wrong because by 12-13 – just 2 years from now you’ve got $30 million committed to just 6 players – only 2 are under 30. If Nemisz, Wahl, Cameron, and Bouma follow a Kris Chucko or even Dustin Boyd career trajectory we are screwed. Maybe 2 of those guys make it., that’s not enough – they need more volume of prospects to develop 5 or 6 of these guys.
No – having a 30 win season guarantees nothing – but allowing your team to age with nothing to back fill it and you are totally hooped.
Oh, and I dislike Eric Duhatschek’s commentary. Intensely. Second-worst Eric in Canadian sports media.
I like how we all say rec’d, but never rec anything.
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by Justin Azevedo on Jul 2, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Higgins gone
Higgins went to Florida, Dawes bought out, hey Kotalik might be needed now-weird? If Langkow is injured, Jokinen is an asset. How the mop flops. I like Jokinen at 3 mill a whole lot better than 5.5 mill. As far as trades, I think we enjoy getting the better end of the deal, not losing a first round pick and Prust for basically-Kotalik after the NYR deal is figured in. Our lineup doesn’t look too bad actually, Jokinen and Tanguay were needed. Jokinen is a streaky scorer who could win fans over eventually. Also, we always have a Finn for Kirpusoff, every time-two Finns, I guess its coincidence. What about our defence-can we sign White? I hope there is enough left. With Mayers, Jackman, and Ivanis, that is a heavy trio, could be good softening up the opposition.
I’m still not 100% comfortable with the scoring punch we have right now. Hopefully something will give on the Kotalik side, or a trade will be made that include either Staios or Kotalik (I’m wishing here).
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Lombardi to Music City. Solid.
Good for Matt. Gets himself a nice $3.5 mill a year contract from the Preds. Love Trotz’ ability to get the most out naturally 2/3 line player, so I think he’ll do good there.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Interestingly, Lombardi is now the higher paid player, so the "Lombardi has as many points as Jokinen’ angle is no longer valid. ;)
good on Nashville
Move a 36 year old Arnott for 28 year old Lombardi and save a million bucks in the process.
Lombardi is basically Stajan carbon-copied. Maybe not in style but in the impact he has on the game, type of icetime he can handle, etc.
I think both are overpaid. The bums :)
by R O on Jul 2, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Stajan has less speed but better hands. But yeah, pretty similar. Stajan edges Lombo In offense but loses in the defensive side.
by Jeremywilhelm on Jul 2, 2010 4:24 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Joker doesn’t have a NMC, at least not one that’s been reported.
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by Justin Azevedo on Jul 3, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
dumb move
sutter basically ran him out of town, he didnt do jack for the rangers and then you bring him back. really! it was a mistake to trade him, really! if it was a mistake then why you trade him at the deadline last year daryl, was it because he wanted to shoot the puck cuz he is a puck shooting center. ugh! im sorry but trying to understand sutter does nowa days give me a damn headache. oh and by the way was their any truth bout the rumor of savard being traded here. maybe thats why he signed jokinen cuz he struck out trying to get savard to want to waive his no trade to here
Mike Green in regular season- Norris Canadiate. Mike Green in Playoffs- Nowhere to be found
Yes, OLI POLI has two years to prove everyone wrong
Oli has two years to prove himself, he did agree to lower his salary but no trading. Higgins is in Florida, so we have Oli and Ales from NY. Its ok, we still don’t have White inked. If we lose him then the Phaneuf deal darkens. What do we do about Toskala? No one has claimed him. At 4 million a season he’s an expensive as a back up. The free agents that are left that would be nice additions-
C Kyle Wellwood, played with Stajan in Bellville (If Langkow is too hurt to play)
D Martin Skoula-if we lose White-cheap salary
D Carlo Colaiacovo-if White-same as above
R Iginla -——C Langkow———————LTanguay
Borque Jokinen Hagman
Moss Stajan Glencross
Jackman Backlund Kotalik ???
Conroy? -status unclear – Jamal Mayers?
D Bowmeester D Giordano
Regher White please sign
Sarich Staios??
Pardy ??
G Kirpusoff
Karllsson
A trade target would be a front line left wing, or Kotalik has to be figured in
Toskala is an UFA so that is irrelevant, Kotalik is either Europe or Abby bound, we don’t need to sign any other d-men, if White doesn’t resign Pardy or Pelech get a chance to step in.
Kotalik wasn't bought out
I hope Kotalik is heading to Europe, much like Marcus Nilsson, however, maybe Sutter is determined to make him fit much like his determination with Jokinen. He would be an on loan player, however, does he have a destination? I think he’ll be in Calgary for training camp. He has skill, maybe he’d contribute. We could have an interesting training camp competition for roster spots.
White hasn’t signed yet, he’s likely a bit more money than his 10% above salary offer, arbitration may be forthcoming. If a trade is made for his rights, and Staois is moved, we could look at a free agent like Willie Mitchell. Not sure if Sarich is being shopped around. I’d like Willie Mitchell being added, two veterans subtracted and Pelech moving up.
Bringing back Olli?
You must be Jokinen!
Occam's Razor keeps the cutting clean.
by russellguldin on Jul 4, 2010 10:54 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
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