Jarome Iginla and the "Better Linemates" Myth?
Iginla didn’t have a great goal-scoring year last year either - he was down to 35 from 50. However, he did earn 54 assists and a lot of them came because he was playing on a line with Michael Cammalleri. If the decision is made to keep Iginla, then the Flames need to find someone like Cammalleri, or even like Alex Tanguay, for Iginla to play with. Tanguay, unlike Cammalleri, was more of a playmaker than a scorer (and not a centre either, which would be ideal), but he was someone who could find Iginla in the shooting areas on the ice, with those nice soft seeing-eye passes of his. Sure, Tanguay was soft and quiet and not exactly a player in the Mike Keenan/Darryl Sutter mould. But he also set up 99 goals in his two years with the Flames. For a Calgary team that scored only 200 in its first 80 games this year, that sort of production might have made the difference between making and missing the playoffs this year. Assuming then that the primary off-season goal in Calgary is to find a complementary player for Iginla - centre or left winger - the most logical candidate to trade is defenceman Robyn Regehr. Even after dumping Dion Phaneuf, Calgary is still relatively deep on the blue line, with Bouwmeester, Ian White, Mark Giordano, Cory Sarich and Steve Staois. It no longer conjures up imagines of Montreal’s big three, but it is a serviceable group that could survive the loss of Regehr, its most physical presence. Trading Regehr (and his comparatively modest $4-million annual salary) for a forward of comparable skill and earnings might just be the short-term way to tweak the team, if the decision is made not to go scorched-earth right away. Something to think about anyway. --Eric Duhatschek, The Globe and Mail
We've heard the refrain one thousand times before: Find a "#1," a "playmaking centre" to play with Iginla, to feed him the puck, and he will remain a constant threat, atop of the league in scoring every season. The basis for this theory isn't unfounded--Iginla hasn't exactly been blessed with the most high quality teammates, from a counting stats standpoint, throughout his career--but the fact that he has twice managed fifty goals certainly says something of the abilities of his linemates, does it not? Or, as so many have contended, is is just him? There are so many extenuating circumstances that it's very difficult if not impossible to extrapolate how many goals and points someone like Cammalleri would have had this season had he remained a Flame, and, in turn, how many goals and points Iginla would have had, and if those new totals would have added up to a playoff berth. Of course, it's always easy to theorize, which has been the basis for so many acquisitions and signings in the past--the Jokinen trade, bringing in Alex Tanguay, bringing in Mike Cammalleri--which haven't always panned out, for one reason or another.
As we're all too aware, Iginla experienced a revolving door of linemates this season, especially over the first fifty or so games which he was paired with Olli Jokinen, in an effort to find that elusive "spark," none of which generated sustainable results. As a result, his quality of teammates suffered significantly. Here is a list of players that rank around Iginla in terms of Quality of Teammates this season:
| Name | Team | GP | TOI/60 | QualTeam |
| Iginla | CGY | 81 | 16.39 | -0.024 |
| Cogliano | EDM | 81 | 12.10 | -0.024 |
| Bourque | CGY | 72 | 13.81 | -0.026 |
| Duchene | COL | 81 | 13.62 | -0.026 |
| Boyes | STL | 82 | 13.1 | -0.032 |
| Tavares | NYI | 77 | 13.36 | -0.033 |
| Kesler | VAN | 80 | 13.86 | -0.038 |
| Jokinen, O. | NYR | 80 | 14.36 | -0.045 |
| Samuelsson | VAN | 73 | 13.59 | -0.048 |
| Ladd | CHI | 81 | 12.82 | -0.053 |
*chart altered to show players who played a minimum of 50 games with over 12 minutes of TOI/60.
Those are all above average-good players right there, but all are playing less and, for the most part, easier minutes in different roles than Iginla, including Bourque.
Not surprisingly, Mike Cammalleri was the premier beneficiary in the QualTeam metric of all Flames forwards last season, when he collected thirty-nine goals, nineteen of which came on the powerplay, and eighty-two points playing alongside Iginla for much of the season. The Flames were one of the best possession teams that season and ranked eighth in the league in goals for, with five 20+ goal scorers on their roster and six including Jokinen. Iginla still managed eighty-nine points that season, a significant enough drop from his previous season's ninety-eight when combined with the fact that he wasn't facing the toughest competition to cause concern.
| Name | GP | G | A | P | PP |
| Iginla | 82 | 35 | 54 | 89 | 10 |
| Cammalleri | 81 | 39 | 43 | 82 | 19 |
| Jokinen | 76 | 29 | 28 | 57 | 9 |
| Langkow | 73 | 21 | 28 | 49 | 4 |
| Bourque | 58 | 21 | 19 | 40 | 0 |
| Moss | 81 | 20 | 19 | 39 | 8 |
In 2007/08, Iginla's career season, his teammates fared much better, overall and better than him, in terms of Quality of Teammates, keeping in mind his frequent linemates Langkow and Huselius were coming off career seasons of their own in 2006-07 and still putting up good numbers:
| Name | Team | GP | TOI/60 | QualTeam |
| Langkow | CGY | 80 | 14.09 | 0.439 |
| Spezza | OTT | 76 | 15.36 | 0.428 |
| Plekanec | MTL | 81 | 12.29 | 0.427 |
| Huselius | CGY | 81 | 13.33 | 0.425 |
| Bertuzzi | ANA | 68 | 12.5 | 0.425 |
| Perry | ANA | 70 | 14.08 | 0.419 |
| Thornton | SJ | 82 | 15.17 | 0.404 |
| Weiss | FLA | 74 | 13.42 | 0.403 |
| Ribeiro | DAL | 76 | 13.79 | 0.389 |
| Kunitz | ANA | 82 | 12.15 | 0.387 |
| Conroy | CGY | 79 | 12.27 | 0.367 |
| Tanguay | CGY | 78 | 13.58 | 0.354 |
| Iginla | CGY | 82 | 15.93 | 0.336 |
Name
GP
G
A
P
PP
Iginla
82
50
48
98
15
Huselius
81
25
41
66
6
Langkow
80
30
35
65
14
Tanguay
78
18
40
58
3
Lombardi
82
14
22
36
2
Conroy
79
12
22
34
1
That year, Craig Conroy and Alex Tanguay faced the toughest comp of all Flames forwards, and both experienced a corresponding dip in points production that was just about equal, as both also missed a few games due to injury. The more I look at these old stats, the more I miss Alex Tanguay.
In 2006-07, a career season for four of his teammates, Iginla managed a career-high 55 assists and 94 points:
Name
GP
G
A
p
PP
Iginla
70
39
55
94
13
Tanguay
81
22
59
81
5
Langkow
81
33
44
77
10
Huselius
81
34
43
77
14
Lombardi
81
20
26
46
5
That season was a far cry from 2005-06, when despite winning the division title, the Flames were one of the lowest scoring clubs in the NHL. That was the last time Iginla failed to reach the 70-point plateau, and the jump in points production for Iginla, Langkow, and Huselius between the two seasons is very impressive and likely one of the main reasons why the Flames jumped from third last in the league in scoring to fourteenth, even though their record and overall position in the standings dropped.
Name
GP
G
A
P
PP
Iginla
82
35
32
67
17
Langkow
82
25
34
59
11
Huselius
78
20
27
47
8
Despite having a much deeper and, for the most part, younger lineup this season than in previous seasons, it seems like no coincidence that Iginla struggled this year when the team only had two other 20+ goal scorers up front, one of which, Niklas Hagman, did most of his scoring in 55 games with the Leafs this season, and neither of whom were his regular linemates. Sure, injuries to Daymond Langkow and Curtis Glencross compromised their scoring abilities this season, mid-season trades may have altered the on-ice chemistry, and maybe a few more goals here and there could have been the difference between making and missing the playoffs, but that difference cannot and should not be shouldered solely by the Captain.
Despite his warts, Jarome still led a low-scoring Flames team in goals and points, and he did so without much help from anyone, while playing the toughest minutes of all forwards on the team. The fact that he managed to do just this while operating on the lowest scoring Flames team since 05-06--the last time he failed to reach the 70-point plateau--is no coincidence, and is still as impressive as ever, regardless of any decline in play or the fact that he doesn't quite stack up against the best in the league as well as he used to. Iginla may no longer be a player who makes his linemates better as much as he is one who is made better by his linemates, and while it is entirely possible that Jarome's numbers would improve if the Flames managed to sign someone like Patrick Marleau for next season or if he spent a season in Pittsburgh playing alongside Sidney Crosby, I think it 's also possible that better seasons out of some of his Flames linemates could have bolstered his counting stats equally.
72 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Maybe they are assuming what I am assuming: that there are teams out there that might want Regehr, but no one in their right mind would take on Staios.
that should be explained to the masses, IMO.
by walkinvisible on Apr 11, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah. No GM worth his salt would trade a 3rd round pick and a decent 6th pairing d-man for Staios.
by SmellOfVictory on Apr 11, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
That guy would have to be a moron.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 11, 2010 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions
speaking of morons...
Azevedo couldn’t help but notice you’re a Stillers fan. Are you happy Santonio ‘John’ Holmes was dealt to NYJ for a 5th? A valuable lesson in not tweeting you’re going to wake N bake.
by Rod Blogojevich on Apr 11, 2010 9:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The worst part about it is that I have a Holmes jersey with the Super Bowl 43 patch on it. I’m surprised more major athletes aren’t getting their asses handed to them because of what they said on the twitter.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 12, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed. The QoC and QoT numbers should really just be used as part of a ranking system within a particular team.
by Robert Cleave on Apr 11, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed to all. Underlying and counting stats give a good representation of where a player ranks on a team (when used in proper context). Its not like the bad Chicago players are better then the good Colorado players despite their superior corsi.
Good article though Hayley, but didn’t Huseleis play with Iginla most of that season while Tangs took on the heavies?
by M F on Apr 11, 2010 11:16 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
WI, seriously. Don’t slam Duhatchek, he’s thought about what the Flames need … a 1st line player. Staios isn’t part of that.
If you were to offer up someone onthe Flames and want / expect to get something top line back, who would it be? Daz has about 3 options, maybe not that many: Iggy, Kipper, Bouw and maybe Regher…
Trading Regehr isn't a crazy idea
I think a lot of other teams think highly of Regehr and would give up a decent center for him. That said, Regehr hasn’t been outstanding this year anyway. He has 0.33 On Ice/Off Ice +/ rating and his Corsi rating is -2.9. I think it’s pretty viable to try moving him.
Ryan
Front Office Fans &
http://sports-opinionated.com
poor editing
sorry for the strikethrough, it should say -0.33 for the Rating from Behind The Net
Ryan
Front Office Fans &
http://sports-opinionated.com
Regehr is at the top of my list of Flames trade able assets then Lanks is 2nd as he could still be a productive 2nd or 3rd line center on a contender.
And JBou and Gio are the only two untouchables when it comes to defense as John Negrin could easily make the jump to the parent club next season with Keith Seabrook and Tim Erixon waiting in the wings.
I’m going to have a couple post up about this stuff in the next couple days.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 11, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
agree
Reggie is the guy to be moved based on what you can get, what he have etc. Yes – we all know Staios and Sarich are not as good, but they would get almost nothing in trade.
No one has mentioned Iggy’s first big yea, when paired with a younger ( and faster) Conroy and the speedy Dean Macammond. How many times this year did we hear analysts say Iggy needs to move his feet more and or Clagary was beat by team speed.
by PrairieStew on Apr 12, 2010 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Calgary has been a slow team since the lockout, as far as I can remember. This year’s Maple Rangers are probably the fastest iteration I’ve seen.
And while I do agree that Regehr may be the best tradebait (or Langks, depending on your preferences), Sarich/Staios for a bag of pucks, or even a single puck, is a necessary attempt to make.
by SmellOfVictory on Apr 12, 2010 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions
used pucks or new ?
They might make an attempt to move them, but highly doubt they would get anything of value – and might have to send something with them to get it done – say Sarich and a 4th rounder for a 5th. I would not advocate that. I guess it depends on what they see for readiness from the top 3 d men in Abbotsford. Maybe Pelech is ready for full time at 22, but I guess I’d rather see another year for the other guys – Negrin and Seabrook.
There will be a new GM is Tampa as of this morning. How about Sarich, Langkow. Glencross and Moss for Vinny !! OK – pick yourself up off the floor – I can dream can’t I ?
Reggie has been facing the hardest opposition and has kept goals against very low for a long time and is not overpaid much. He is our Rod langway award winner. I would not trade 28.
by shep_ on Apr 12, 2010 3:37 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
I tend to feel the same, but the question is whether last year’s knee injury is still lingering and whether his knees have finally caught up to him overall. It would be hard to part with him, but if Regehr is deteriorating, it is because of an increasing physical limitation, and it makes sense to move him before other teams catch on.
FWIW, I agree entirely with the premise that Iginla’s been screwed by poor linemates. I threw a post up on Calgarypuck over the weekend blaming Todd Bertuzzi for that. Not as much Bertuzzi himself, but Sutter for signing him, and Keenan for starting him on the first line. I think having a second “power forward” on that line led Iginla to move to the outside to be a setup man. The result was that Iginla set up Cammalleri’s career season, but he became a less effective player overall. Replace Bertuzzi with old man Conroy, and then Jokinen; replace Cammalleri with nobody of note on left wing, and we have Iginla playing by himself this year. And, as Duhatschek noted, teams made it a priority to shut Iginla down. Nobody else on his line could split their focus.
Splitting Iginla and Langkow was the dumbest move Keenan made and Brent Sutter perpetuated it by keeping them apart. Goal scoring from both Iginla and Langkow declined 30% last year specifically because of Bertuzzi. Langkow suffered even more this year as a result of playing with linemates who aren’t set-up men.
Trade Regehr eh? For the life of me I cannot figure this out...
why is it that when someone, such as myself, suggests trading Iginla, certain people cry like a newborn that he has a NTC, so it ain’t going to happen. Yet they don’t propose the same ‘defense’ when it applies equally to both situations.
I understand that using this strawman to avoid actually getting into the discussion about trading a player and the benefits/advantages it would bring, is easier for the ‘emotional attachment’ to the captain.
However, it’s equally important to note that Regehr and Langkow have a NTC as well. As much as it’s unlikely Iggy is going to move to be a star somewhere, I highly doubt Reggie is going to uproot his life and family in Calgary to go to a different project.
As well, Regehr is about the best value defender we have. I ultimately think suggestions of trading him are as near an intelligence test as one can create. Maybe we could go out and get another Staios equivilent to eat up his cash right?
As far as I’ve seen, the only people suggesting trading Reggie is the MSM. And I don’t care about them. I’ll start screaming about NTC’s and stuff when someone makes a FanPost about it.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 12, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Furthermore...
I am sooo sick of hearing the argument that what is bringing Iggy down is not having a good set of line-mates/#1 center. There has been abundant evidence on the blog that it was not just Jokinen, or other, that were the reasons for Jarome’s struggles. Jarome has a huge part to do with it as well. But I’m not going to go there again.
Instead, I’m going to suggest another way of looking at it.
NUMBER 1 centres do two things:
FIRST and most importantly: they suck up a whole shit-ton of cash. Usually said cash in invested in them, and not their line-mates.
For example:
Sidney Crosby: 8.7 million
Joe Thorton: 7.2 million
Henrik Sedin: 6.1 million
Now, I’ve intentionally omitted listing ‘shitty value number 1 centers (ie Lecavalier 7.272 mil.) because we don’t want them, although that’s likely all we would be able to acquire.
Crosby rarely plays with Pittsburgh’s second highest paid player, less PP, because he’s also a center – Malkin. Crosby is playing with 2 and 3 million types.
SO, the question is…where do we get the cash, knowing how strapped we are, for this miracle savior?
SECOND. Crazy good number one centers make shitty-bad, or average wingers very good. Think Jonathan Cheechoo. Think Alex Burrows. Think Miroslav Satan.
So, is this what we are saying IGGY is? Is a quasi-crappy winger, who just needs a Crosby to feed him a thousand pucks? You could put my grandmother on a line with Crosby and she would get 70 pts, but she wouldn’t suck down 7 million dollars like Iggy does.
Iggy IS the money we have invested in that line. We cannot have a first line that reads across the board:
Bourque: 3.333 – ‘Savior’: 6 to 7 million – Iggy: 7 million
That’s bloody 16-17 million invested in one line. AND if they still don’t score? Kinda like with Joker? Then what?
Like I’ve said. Bourque is the winger who needs a young skilled Number 1 center (and that’s not Stajan). Iggy is not the one who needs that. Iggy is the leverage and the cash to go out and get it.
Really, there comes a point when you realize that putting any player with better linemates and giving him tons of ice time will make him better. You could put B. McG with Crosby 20 minutes a night and he would have a career year.
The point is. We don’t pay Iggy 7 million to carry a sandwich board that reads: “If I only had better linemates. I’d be an elite player again”
We pay him 7 million TO BE an elite player.
I think everyone here realizes that, I’m saying that if Iginla’s linemates perform better, the chances are that he will, in turn, perform better, not that he will perform better if he has different or better linemates.
I’m not sure everyone here or in the media does realize that, but I’m happily certain you do.
I do however think that if Jarome performs better, first defensively and then offensively, then Jarome would perform better. Smart eh?
Scoring in the NHL is ultimately a factor of persistence. You get enough shots, you’re going to get goals, especially if you’re Jarome, but you can’t get many shots if you’re floundering in the defensive zone all night.
Defense however, is much more than persistence, and Jarome’s line-mates can only carry him so much on that part. Contrary to what people think, Jokinen wasn’t terrible in the defensive zone…he just was terrible at doing his job and Iggy’s. Langkow on the other hand, seems pretty good at that.
I understand that Iginla needs to play better and that he hasn’t played like an elite player over the past two seasons, I’m not denying that or saying that he doesn’t hold any responsibility for his play. The point of my post was that there’s a correlation between the play of Jarome’s linemates and his play. I am aware of how shots and goals work, and that Iggy’s shot totals have been declining over the past few seasons through no one’s fault but his own.
Jokinen wasn’t terrible in the defensive zone, I agree, but he was outshot more often than he outshot the opposition when he was on the ice, as were Stajan, Hagman and many of his other linemates this season, so you can’t place blame solely on Iggy for his time spent “floundering” in the defensive zone and not creating scoring chances if his linemates aren’t driving possession either. Langkow is a better option at centre for Jarome because he’s a defensive forward and is better at driving possession, and should be paired with him for those reasons alone, not to mention that the two have a history of playing well together and putting up points in the process.
Usually said cash in invested in them, and not their line-mates.
Of your three examples, Crosby is the only really solid one. Sedin plays with decently-paid twin (admittedly, Samuelsson/Burrows are pretty cheap), and Thornton plays on the most expensive first line in the NHL; shit, Heatley makes more than he does.
You absolutely can have 16 million locked up in your first line (also, if I were making the lines I’d put Hagman on the first line and Bourque down with Backlund because they seem to play well together). In this hypothetical top-heavy team, Langkow would have to go; Stajan and Backlund would be 3rd/2nd liners, and the 4th line C would be someone like Mayers or Sutter.
by SmellOfVictory on Apr 12, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
You absolutely can have 16 million locked up in your first line
Of course it’s possible, but can THIS team have that?
In this hypothetical top-heavy team, Langkow would have to go
Again, he’s got the same NTC as Iggy and why would we want to deal a player everyone has been praising for his efforts, defense and composure (Lanks) vs a player a lot of people are critical of due to his diminishing play (Iginla) especially when you factor in return and dollars?
Because unlike Iginla, we have two guys at their position underperforming, and neither is a clear cut #1 centre counting numbers wise.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 12, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
What he said. And really, Langks may be better than Stajan, but he is getting old, he costs a million more cap-wise, and they can both ably fill the 2nd/3rd line (depending where Backlund was).
And you don’t trade Iginla because he is Iginla. He is the Elliot Ness of the Flames.
by SmellOfVictory on Apr 12, 2010 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I know we went over this in the past, but this team will never succeed with Rene Bourque as its leader. He’s just not good enough.
how do you define leader? Is that offensive leader?
and then this comment is based on what evidence?
Well, the first thing is that he’s never played a full season and if he’s your number one guy, he can’t be missing games.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 12, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
This is a baseless argument. Plenty of teams have their ‘leader’ go down with injury, Hell, Ovechkin only played 72 games, and Alfredsson played 70.
Alfredsson hasn’t played a complete season since 95-96, and he’s the captain.
Look at Ov’s team. Look at the other forwards the Senators have. If Bork is the number one guy here, then who exactly is the number two? You think that guy will be of the caliber of Spezza or Backstrom or Semin?
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 12, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Justin, you’re arguing based on “expected injuries” I could argue that due to Jarome’s age he is likely to have a piano fall on him.
I’m not going to discount the fact that Bourque has been injured, but it’s entirely dubious to argue that Bourque has a greater likelihood of being out for the season or for a large portion of it than Iginla.
A torn knee ligament or a concussion (for example) can happen to anyone at anytime. If anything, your “what-if-inuries-occur” example only strengthens my argument of trading one Jarome for two or three Bourque-level acquisitions as if Jarome gets hurt, then where are we?
What if Jarome gets hurt now the he’s getting older? Then who do we have? Nobody in your eyes.
I am not trying to predict anything. Here is what I’ve said so far:
-Rene Bourque has never played a full season.
-The number one guys you mentioned have more then one or two top level talents, which the Flames at this point do not.
I was not making any predictions as to his future health, only that his health to this point has not been typical of the “#1 Guy” mould.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 12, 2010 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s not a good enough goal scorer, he’s not a good enough passer, he takes stupid penalties at bad times, he’s often injured and he wasn’t exactly the dominating force himself late in the season.
Rene Bourque is something that a team looking for success absolutely has to have: a solid goal-scoring complimentary player. He can either be the guy who leads the second line, as he did this year, or the guy who takes the pressure off your big player on the first, as he could paired with Iginla and the proper centre. But either way, he is a complimentary player.
Right, so this is offensive.
I wouldn’t endorse Bourque as the teams leader…ie Captain.
but I think he could very well be the teams offensive leader next year in terms of numbers.
And I’m certain of it if you counted points/dollar
I doubt it very much. Bourque’s best career year still doesn’t match up with one of Iginla’s worst.
And points/dollar is a red herring.
Well, Bourque did have a better Goals/60, Ass1/60 and Pts/60.
I guess those are red herrings as well right?
Bourque’s best career year still doesn’t match up with one of Iginla’s worst.
Are you serious? In Jarome’s fourth year he had 63 points in 77games. in his third he had 51 pts in 82 games. Bourque had 58 points in effectively his third/fourth ‘real’ season in 73 games. This is practically identical to Iginla. I’m not saying Rene Bourque is going to evolve into another Jarome Iginla because he is not, but he can be a very dominant two-way forward, which is something Iginla is not.
Iginla also had tougher comp this year.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 15, 2010 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Iginla is ranked 7th in scoring for right wingers in the NHL, 5th in goal scoring. Dustin Penner and Phil Kessel are the only two players in that top ten that do NOT have a legit #1 center. Iginla is 5+ years older than the two that don’t.
The guy IS playing at an elite level on a non-elite team.
Oh and I should have said that Iginla out produced both of those other players without number 1 centers. So it doesn’t necessarily justify his salary compared to theirs, but makes it a little easier to swallow.
by Jeremywilhelm on Apr 12, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure, fair enough. I’m not saying that Iginla has been awful, or that Iginla is not an excellent player. My arguement has always been that he is not very good value. If was can live with that then fine, but I believe, if this team is going to be taken in a direction toward success, then probably we cannot.
I guess I just grow tired with the convenient ‘excuse’ that Iggy needs better linemates. There are numerous factors contributing to that acquisition that the Flames don’t have a lot of room to influence. Firstly financial, second chemistry, and third trade potential…all of which we stack up weak on.
As well, there has been little evidence in the past in my mind that anyone we bring in is actually going to make a substantial difference in Iginla’s play. He’s not likely to get better defensively and he may get 10-15 points more offensively. If our hopes are balancing on the razors edge of Iggy and 10-15 points, then we have bigger problems than just a first line center – which is again, my point.
It’s not an excuse, and it is hardly convenient. Iggy was a one man line this year, and other teams made it a priority to shut him down. Yes, he needed to play better, but he was fighting up hill the entire season because Jokinen was a complete waste and we never had a left winger worth the name. Compare that crap to Langkow up the middle and Tanguay/Husleius/Cammalleri on the left, and 06-07 through 08-09 saw massive seasons from Iginla because the opposition had to split their focus. Meanwhile, Langkow, Huselius and Cammalleri had career seasons playing with Iginla.
This really isn’t about getting better linemates for Iginla. It is about getting a better top line, period. Jarome Iginla is this team’s best scorer, and he is its best playmaker, both by a long shot. The argument revolves around him because of his longevity, but he is exactly the type of player we need on our top line. We need the centre and the left wing. Personally, I think we would be just fine with Langkow at centre and a playmaking winger, or Bourque on the wing and a playmaking centre.
by Resolute on Apr 12, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty much. The only thing is that aside from 3 or 4 expensive players, the UFA pool is looking pretty bleak and Sutter already used his most valuable trade piece.
The 4th Line Blog
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Apr 12, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
If you believe this then you’ve forgotten to watch the games.
Iggy was far from a one man line this year, and if you believe so, you’re the only one. Go back and read the comments from the game threads.
Jarome was completely ineffective about 50% of the time and ended up way behind in terms of corsi.
I will grant you that he is the teams best goal scorer, but best play-maker? You’ve got to be kidding.
I am aware of the game threads, thanks. I could just as easily throw the ad hominem back in your face and ask if you ever bothered to watch the games yourself. Or did you actually think Jokinen and Glencross were effective first liners?
I can’t say I am surprised you ignored the point on how Iginla had better seasons with better line mates, and that better line mates had career years with Iginla. But hey, things like that completely ruin your arguments, so best not to think about it, eh?
But hey, things like that completely ruin your arguments, so best not to think about it, eh?
Then you do not know my argument.
I have no doubt that if you put Iggy on the ice for 30 minutes a game with Crosby and Ovechkin he would have a career year. That still doesn’t make him 1. the player he once was. 2. a good value player (or in that hypothetical case a viable financial component), 3. a player who can play defense or drive possession like we need 4. not an extremely valuable trade asset.
For more, see Kent’s post below.
He had 89 points last year and 50 goals two years ago. Yes. he’s changed his game and that has led to a decline, but the decline is mental, not physical. You act as if his best seasons were five years ago and that he’s only being kept around for sentimental reasons.
And spare me the stupid hyperbole like “yeah, if he played with Crosby and Ovechkin.” Langkow and Husleius, and Conroy and Cammalleri weren’t half those two, and yet Iginla did fine. But, again, you don’t want to think about it because it begins to demonstrate that your opinion is based on irrational zealotry.
“The guy [Iginla] IS playing at an elite level on a non-elite team.” – Spot-on. The Olympics proved this. He scored 30 goals on a team that couldn’t score. 30 goals!
We won 40 games. Many teams in the playoffs last year are outside this year. We need scoring. A top-drawer first line (Stajan is a 2nd line centre). Here’s an idea…
Trade JBo. I know I’ll get ripped for this, but we are deep on “d”. We have a great goalie. Keep Regher with White. Bring up Pelech or Negrin. Try to unload Sarich (though I think Sarich has a lot of heart. I like him) Give Leland a crack. No one will take Staios, except a team looking for veteran leadership. He may prove useful for one year.
I’d try to re-sign Mayers, as well. Cheap. Nystrom also needs to be re-signed. Ditto White. And Higgins.
Glencross/Nystrom/Mayers – that’s a line that can score, as well as grind. As long as Nystrom continues to centre. It could be a decent third line for many teams, minus Mayers.
Kotalik could be the worst signing ever. And I support the Sutters. Here’s hoping he proves to be another Bourque. Highly unlikely, though. Highly unlikely.
What to do w/Langs? He’s expensive… and aging… but we all love him. Lots of heart… but lots of salary…. for 14 goals…
JBo should be able to get us a nice return. (Perhaps I am jaded because I think Regher is a decent guy, and I’m a fan of his…) Do you wait to see if he fits in next year, or cut your losses now? Do we need JBO, or a FIRST LINE centre (again, not Stajan, who I think will do well here, on the SECOND LINE) to centre Bourque and Iginla. JBo is the bait.
Everton, this is where Timberlake would scream:
“NTC!”
Plus, he sucked¡¡¡ this year. The Buy low/Sell high concept didn’t stick with you did it?
GMs may see it as an off-year as opposed to him not being able to live up to expectations. Yes, NTCs make everything difficult, but hypothetically he might bring a good return. And damn it, his contract is so big (but wait, Iginla’s is also big!). Iginla is the team captain, the face of the franchise, and has provided 30+ goals per year for almost a decade straight for this team. Of the two underperformers, I’d trade JBo over Iginla any day of the week (this is where I would include Kent’s ‘defensemen cannot drive offense as effectively as forwards’ argument in order to bolster my claim that JBo is being overpaid for no good reason).
by SmellOfVictory on Apr 12, 2010 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions
How about this, Lets make IGGY the number one center everyone is so fond of getting!!! He’s great on face-offs, Brent just needs to teach him how to backcheck and we’re in buisness!! It costs us nothing. Then we pick up Tanguay for cheap, and he can feed Iggy and Bourque till his eyes turn purple.
I know this is probably a facetious comment, but seriously, has Iginla ever been tried out at center? Maybe he’d be good at it.
by SmellOfVictory on Apr 12, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m going to enter this argument soon, perhaps this week, with my own post on the subject.
I’ll say this though…nothing about Jarome was elite this year. Nothing. Not his point-per-game pace (which was something like 45th overall in the league), not his ES production rate, not his PP production rate and certainly not his ability to drive possession. He didn’t even lead the team in any of these measures. His totals were decent largely to due his high volume of ice time.
The issue to determined is: how steep is the decline? If it continues in this vein, the team needs to either protect Iginla with a checking line a la Barry Trotz, or acquire fresh elite players to take on the heavy lifting with him.
Looking forward to it Kent.
I agree with the point that we need line-mates to actually play with him vs throwing the baby out with the bath water. That doesn’t need to be a centre but at least a decent left wing/playmaker to take pressure off.
I have said it before but it would be a better position for him if he was getting softer minutes and scoring more that way. Not many players can still score in bunches like Jarome used to (last few years before this one). I think that is what you meant by the “a la Barry Trotz” checking line.
He has a scoring instinct that can’t be taught. Even when he has okay years and bad games somehow the puck seems to find his stick. He has had many games this year where he wasn’t very good if you were to watch him, but he scored. Also understand that I know that anyone can get lucky, play poorly while getting a deflection/garbage goal. I just happen to think Iggy gets more “lucky goals” than most.

by 


























