Flames vs. Hurricanes Game Thread - Third Period
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 7:49 PM PST
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By popular demand, since we were north of 400 comments after two periods. Have at it, folks.
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Is this the first time all year a second gamethread had to be created?
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
Yes. We probably should have a couple of times earlier, but the recent bump in traffic might make this a regular occurrence. It’s all good. For some of our mobile or slower computer folks, anything over 200 or so is likely a significant pain in the ass.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 7:52 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks. My ability to post died around 350.
by Resolute on Feb 3, 2010 8:18 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
No. Just practical. Flyers GT had 720.
Go Flames Go
Where Ales Kotalik is the saviour of the franchise. Yuck.
by Justin Azevedo on Feb 3, 2010 7:52 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah. No rule, just trying to manage the numbers so everyone can use the site. I know PPP’s game threads go this route all the time due to volume.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 7:54 PM PST up reply actions
STampedeblue.com and canalstreetchronicles.com are going to need new gamethreads every 5 minutes on Sunday
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 3, 2010 7:54 PM PST up reply actions
I’d think so, Rod. I know that the second half thread alone at Burnt Orange Nation had 1577 comments during the BCS championship game, so the potential is there for some overload.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 7:58 PM PST up reply actions
Not surprised. In my short time there I’ve notice that approximately every third thread involves someone declaring that they’ve jizzed in their pants. That would increase volume by a fair margin.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 7:55 PM PST up reply actions
Colts fans suck. They are the shittiest fans in all of sports. The deadspin crew wishes death upon them daily
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 3, 2010 7:56 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, any sport fan from Boston is useless too. Bill Simmons leads the way
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 3, 2010 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
Now Now
Don’t be mean to the sports fans in Boston, especially the Flames fans who happen to live there.
Where did the tradition of interviews in between periods come from?
In my experience here in Australia, it’s hard enough to get our guys to speak at the end of games (football etc etc) than the extended forms you guys have for hockey.
+1 to Canada.
I’m actually not a huge fan of most hockey interviews. The majority of players are pretty camerashy and/or poor orators and/or tow the party line, so to speak. Now NFL interviews, those are interesting. =D
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 7:54 PM PST up reply actions
*camera shy. Man it’s hard to read mashed together.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 7:54 PM PST up reply actions
um. you’re a flames fan in australia ?!? that’s sweet.
by walkinvisible on Feb 4, 2010 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
Ottawa will be a tough win to finish our upcoming roadtrip…
by Andrew ChillGoose on Feb 3, 2010 7:54 PM PST reply actions
If anyone is a college basketball fan
- Kansas is being harassed by an uppity Colorado team right now on The Score. About four minutes left and the Buffaloes will not go away.
Same story with the how the Huskers and Wildcats played them.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
3 point game 3:38 to play
Colorado is not afraid of them.
I have it on in the background.
I hope the Buffs can pull it off.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
Kansas by 1
Colorado just took a bad (see LONG) 3 that clanked.
KU has been playing with fire this whole season I hope they end up losing this and the folks in Boulder rush the court.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
Tie game
How Colorado comes out here determines the game… not jus because they can eat this clock, but if they come out timid, this goes OT and they lose. They need to keep passing and working the in and out like they have been.
And they take a terrible shot
Not real hopeful for the Buffaloes.
Big fan of the Buffs.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 3, 2010 8:18 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I am more of a Big East/ACC follower
though I track the WCC, MVC, and WAC quite a bit as well.
I went to Miami, so naturally I like the ACC too. Great hoops conference.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 3, 2010 8:22 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I can only claim to have gone to Carleton here in Ottawa
Pretty solid, attending the school during the first three of their recent titles. They have won the Canadian nationals 6 of the last 7 years… they even play tough against US Colleges when they travel up here in the fall each year.
That's cool.
Yeah I was spoiled in college. In football, we lost the first game of my sophomore year and did not lose until what was my last game my senior, the Fiesta Bowl national championship. We won the national title in that stretch too. Good times.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Something is wacky with the corsi…cause Kotalik has 2 shots, one wide and two blocked off his stick alone….doesn’t jive.
Weren’t 2 of those blocks against on the PP? Those wouldn’t show.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:02 PM PST up reply actions
Would be nice to see an early goal
Get them down by 3.
Have not seen much of Higgins this game…
by Andrew ChillGoose on Feb 3, 2010 8:02 PM PST reply actions
Is there anything worth cracking open the previous game thread?
and does anyone have an interweb feed. ?
Too bad thst turn into a goal I was watching Backlund he really knows where to go to get into decent scoring position
Yeah, he’s done a good job. It’s nice he’s getting a real shot with the big club, as Abbotsford hasn’t been a fit for him.
I was planning on going out to a game in January/February, but I’ve lost the desire with Backlund up, and they’re gone on an Olympic road trip as well, but I have heard that they look…rough.
The Heat are a wee distance from Calgary.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 8:14 PM PST up reply actions
I’m in Marpole, I split my time between UBC and Richmond, so I’m living half-way between. Are you leaving town for the Games?
I’m sticking around, I’m in the midst of a practicum, so I’ve got to work. It’s OK, though, other than the traffic I’m really looking forward to it, I’m going to take in as much of the free stuff as I can and just try to soak it all up.
I am in Ottawa
but not bought tickets for this week. Trying to get some via a draw this week-end, and working some people I know who can get press box height seats through work.
Can’t be good for Backlund if he’s actually got confidence issues.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 8:07 PM PST up reply actions
Omg Boyd is cut pretty bad… thats using your head
by Andrew ChillGoose on Feb 3, 2010 8:06 PM PST reply actions
I think it’s a good thing that we’ve only heard about Kotalik on the Powerplay.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
Do the Canes have a poor forecheck?
Or have the Flames been exiting their own zone tonight well?
Good exiting. Canes forecheck isn’t exactly great, but the Flames are doing a lot of things better than the past month.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 8:18 PM PST up reply actions
I know its the Canes but I’m liking these lines. I think if Higgins and Langkow can find Kotalik the puck, he’ll rip em home.
Triple B line looks good.
Stajan Hagman Iggy is nice
and hell Glen X has two….pretty good.
So if Dawes and Moss are good after the Olympics, then what? It’s not a bad problem if these lines work, of course.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:20 PM PST up reply actions
McE, I presume? I wonder what Sarich and a couple of forwards could bring.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
For a backup goalie, for sure. I was thinking generally, I guess.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:24 PM PST up reply actions
when hedberg was brought up in the context of moving for kovalchuk i thought it was a good idea, i think it would work outside of a kovalchuk trade too,
I like ‘em too. Think it’s too much to hope that Brent gives them another game or two, just to see if they hold up, before he puts the blender to work again?
Peter’s Drive-In needs to get on the wagon with something …
by Calgarian in SJ on Feb 3, 2010 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
Its a good thing that all these new players get to go up against non playoff teams going into the Olympic break. They can gain some confidence for the stretch run in March.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 3, 2010 8:25 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Great game tonight and yes I’m aware it was the Canes but this is a great dressing room booster and the upcoming road trip will do the team well especially the new guys.
This can work everyone on this team just needs to mesh together which they have shown some spurts of tonight.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
The upcoming road trip may also dictate whether Daz wants to make more moves or whether he’s ready to go all the way with this group.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 3, 2010 8:28 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
If you guys think the Telus ads on tv are bad, you should see thw overly dramatic Acuvue contact lens ads they have on the jumbotron. Like two minutes long and play like a coming of age story. Laaaaame.
by Resolute on Feb 3, 2010 8:26 PM PST via mobile reply actions
That’s the third time Kotalik has been hard on the boards with a defnder in his face and just pushed the puck through him. He does look pretty darn strong.
A big body presence
that uses the big body? They are allowed to do that?
He’s a big dude, Lawrence. I think it was always more a question of interest than natural resources.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:29 PM PST up reply actions
I can’t say he’s been amazing, but I am happy to see 5 beside the shot count for Kotalik. With a shot like his, it’s only a matter of time. I just didn’t want to see a 0 or a 1.
Good point, and that’s an indication of hard play many nights. Not getting shots is just as often a marker that signifies “soft” as the standard physical stuff that people obsess over.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:37 PM PST up reply actions
The Canes really suck though. Nice effort by the local hockey heroes. I’ll take the win for sure though.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
we also dodged a bullet tonight with all those powerplays they couldn’t convert
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Which argues that they are, in fact, as bad as their record suggests.
by Resolute on Feb 3, 2010 8:53 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
well gents and lasses
that was fun, but work early so I will catch the post-game chatter from you on the morrow.
So Dion and Phil Kessel were attending the Raps game tonight.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
gay…so gay
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Sounds like Dion’s got a new friend. It’ll be interesting to see if those two turn Toronto into a powerhouse.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
And 5 of those from Kotalik, RBQ & GlenX
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
AND, that’s three different lines as well. That is something that I really like. A shooter on each line.
Actually the shots per line were
Hagman (0) – Stajan (2) – Iggy (3) – 5
Higgins (2) – Lanks (3) – Kotalik (5) – 10
Boyd (2) – Backlund (2) – RBQ (5) – 9
GlenX (5) – Nystrom (2) – Mayers (3) – 10
Jbo had 3, Regehr and Sarich.
Other than Hagman not getting any (except the wrister he ripped over the net) I’m happy about that distribution.
Flames +14, +2 in the period, which is good when you start up two goals. Chris Higgins was on the ice for 13 EV shots for, only 2 against. Nice night.
EV shots 30-22 CGY.
Higgins particularly impressive given his ZS splits.
by R O on Feb 3, 2010 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
A tad late to the party (I know), but wow. Umm traffic sure is up, eh :)
Someone give me a quick summary of the game in 5 sentences or less. (I’ll also accept haiku)
That works.
And the Flames did a good job killing off a pile of penalties, mostly to Sarich.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
So… Sarich has to go next, right? I don’t mind him (aside from recent poor play), but his salary is out of whack. By my eye, Phoenix still owes us a favour ;)
He certainly struggled again. The salary can`t be justified for a guy who`s iffy against anyone but the bottom sixers. As much as I`d like them to trade the Flames an impending UFA d-man that they have, I doubt Phoenix will helping a team that chasing them.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:56 PM PST up reply actions
HAIKU !!!!!!! effin’ nice work, lady. :)
by walkinvisible on Feb 4, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
They`d need an extra D out of that move. I don`t think they`re ready to run Aaron Johnson and Staffan Kronwall as their full time 6th and 7th guys.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
Saw the Oilers/Flyers highlights, Edmonton SO lucky to have won that game, lots of bad bounces for philly, couldn’t finish anything.
Fuck yeah.
High fives all around.
That was NHL hockey. Aside from Sarich trying to get himself traded, that was one of the best all around games the team has played in a long while.
Man that was refreshing.
It definitely was. Sarich was still drinking the Kovi to CGY Kool-Aid. Regardless of who they beat, wins can only help the morale of the team which has been in the crapper for while now.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
If they had stayed out of the box, they would have completely ran Carolina out of the building.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:11 PM PST up reply actions
Or run them out. Yikes. And you`ve got it covered.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:12 PM PST up reply actions
Ouch.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Long day. I flew home from Edmonton this morning, and it`s starting to set in.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
i was actually saying ouch to your statement. If they had they stayed out of the box…it wouldnt of been painful for the canes…get it? ouch? ; )
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
See, I told you it was starting to set in. Comprehension skillz going south…
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:17 PM PST up reply actions
Nothing drains the will to live like spending time in Leduc International Airport. Especially if you took a small plane and had to spend time in that bland, dreary holding cell of theirs.
I was on Jazz, so it was an RJ back to Winnipeg from the main gates. It’s still a drag, though. I worked next door to that airport for three years, flew out of there a fair bit, and I didn’t miss it a bit when I left.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
Oh Christ… so you were in both Leduc international and the double wide ATCO trailer that passes for Winnipeg’s airport?
The only thing worse is the Fort Nelson-Fort St. John-Grande Prairie-Edmonton-Calgary milk run I’ve had to take a couple times.
Yup. At least the double wide is getting replaced by the end of the year. The current international departure area in Winnipeg might be the most embarrassing airport space in any major Canadian city. I used to work in on a reserve in Norway House MB. and the airport there had more room than people in Winnipeg had if they made the terrible social faux pas of wanting fly somewhere warmer than -30 in the winter.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 4, 2010 7:03 AM PST up reply actions
Kerr was just making fun of Jermaine for the “where do you go from here” comment. That exchange will never get old for me.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
lol. i was really bummed out this week considering i was going to follow a pathetic team all over this state. i’m actually excited now to see them live. this will be interesting.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Not that I dislike it or anything (I’m actually okay with it… so far), but the Phaneuf trade BLOWS MY FREAKING MIND. Seeing him doin interviews with Leaf gear on is strange.
yeah i was thinking the same thing watching all that nut hugging they’re doing on TSN…its really weird…i almost feel like after the Olympics he’ll be back or something.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
I don’t know how he’s going to look in the home Leafs uniform. That will be… strange. So used to him in red. Really used to seeing Euros in the blue Leafs uniform.
by R O on Feb 3, 2010 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
Whoa. I just realized the gamethread got split. I saw 178 comments and was slightly disappointed at the traffic.
Good work folks!
Yeah, once we were at about 300 comments with 9 minutes left in the second, I got a request from someone (MF, maybe?) to split it, and it seemed like a good plan.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
Only listned to this one but it was laughable.
Penalty after penalty even though the Flames spent practically every minute at EV and a non-trivial proportion of the PK in the Carolina end of the rink.
This happens often enough that I have talked myself into thinking there might be some refs who don’t like Calgary. Probably bullshit but there it is.
Incidentlaly check out Backlund’s splits. 5 OFF 0 DEF zone faceoffs, surprisingly low event too (on the ice for 7 shots-directed for, 7 against). Must have had his icetime managed, I haven’t checked but no one else on the roster was even close to those low totals, even with the reduced EV time this game.
Weird because Maher kept calling his name out, was he really that noticealbe on the ice? Anyways, this is how you shelter a rookie, not a bad thing to do really since you ought to put these young guys in positions to succeed. Maybe it boosts their confidence, and it hurts your team the least.
Penalty after penalty even though the Flames spent practically every minute at EV and a non-trivial proportion of the PK in the Carolina end of the rink.
According to Maher’s PBP anyway, which is always excellent. It sounded like Bourque got a non-trivial amount of Staal ice time, not sure if that’s how it shok out.
by R O on Feb 3, 2010 9:39 PM PST up reply actions
Bourque saw some of that in the third at EV, but the penalties made a complete mess of the match-ups through two. He certainly spent a lot of time against him on the PK based on Vic’s charts.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:49 PM PST up reply actions
Backlund and Boyd had good legs, and I did notice that Staal was out there against them for a couple of shifts to start the third with no ill consequences. He was up against Sutter and Cullen otherwise, and not much of the Canes fourth line. His numbers are pretty close to Bourque and Boyd to my eye.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:46 PM PST up reply actions
In fact Bourque was 5 for, 5 against at EV.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:51 PM PST up reply actions
Whoa you’re right. I swear I looked at everyone’s numbers.
No matter, that line was real low even ttonight.
by R O on Feb 3, 2010 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
And I don’t mind that in a third line with two young guys. It’s like the Hippocratic Oath, right? You know, first, do no harm?
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
Whoa, the entire line was sheltered. Of course it consists of a rook, a 23 year old centre trying to come into his own and a 2A difference maker, so that makes sense.
Look at the fourth line though. Holy crap over half the OFF zone faceoffs. By comparison Lanks had the toughest gig and Iggy the second toughest.
Respect.
by R O on Feb 3, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
That shows you how good Langkow and Higgins were. Like I mentioned up top, Higgins was on the ice for 13 shots for, and only two against. That’s some good playing.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:57 PM PST up reply actions
Backlund and Boyd were good. They have some of the puck creativity the team has been missing. As you say, Butter managed their ice time appropriately as well (although I saw them vs. Staal a couple of times in the 3rd).
There was a sequence in the first where Maher said he stole the puck from Staal and nearly scored, how did that happen? Not an easy thing to do, Staal’s a fine player.
by R O on Feb 3, 2010 9:57 PM PST up reply actions
Lifted his stick from behind, and then curled to the middle for a good backhand, IIRC.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:58 PM PST up reply actions
I was kind of surprised and very pleased with that, as well. He also fed a great pass to Boyd that resulted in a near goal (Boyd missed the open net, unfortunately). The kid is showing more promise by the game, I think.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 9:58 PM PST up reply actions
He and Sarich gave Boyd that chance on a plate. Boyd just missed a wide open net.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
That line also had the nicest “chance” of the night. Moved the puck rapidly from the neutral zone to a scoring area with sarich setting up Boyd for a tap in. Boyd was surprised by the pass, so the puck lsid by him, but it was one of the nicest sequences we’ve seen out of the team in awhile.
Do you think Butter has altered his system at all, or just let up a bit on it? The Flames still looked good defensively, but they didn’t look as hung up on “BE GUD AT D. DURRRRR” at the expense of offensive play as they did previously (I realize this is probably due in great part to the new blood and lines, but it’s always a possibility).
Ddin’t watc the game. If you did, tell me:
1.) How many forwards on the screen on average on a Canes transition?
2.) How about how high the centre was on the cycle?
3) How many men in on the forecheck when the score was 1-0 or 1-1 or 2-1?
The second and third points reall gets me, I approve of hard backcheck but not at the expense of creativity in the offensive zone.
In any case the answers to the three above will tell you if he’s still running the same “1-in” forecehck and 2.5-man cycle.
The forecheck looks at lot more aggressive to me. The Cane’s had less time and space in their own zone than usual and the Flames forced turn overs at the oppsition blueline a lot. Hell, the PK was similar with Calgary outshooting the Canes on the PK (!).
Too bad you missed this one, RO, it was the closest to real hockey the Flames have played since probably that Vancouver game.
The fact that they didn’t quit playing in the third with a two goal lead was a nice change as well. Other than the Staal breakaway, Carolina didn’t do that much for a team that was chasing, and that’s mostly because they were under some pressure. Can they do this on a regular basis to better teams? Well, that’s the real question, isn’t it?
by Robert Cleave on Feb 3, 2010 10:11 PM PST up reply actions
I really need to pay more attention to detail when I watch, I suppose. Haha. The only one I can really answer with some accuracy would be the second.
2) Pretty low, now that you mention it. To be honest, most of the Flames play that I noticed was off the rush, though. I was pleased that they weren’t just going wide along the boards everytime (even Iggy cut through the middle at least once).
In addition, I would say it was definitely not just one-in at all times.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 3, 2010 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
I was at the game and I thought it was excellent. I didn’t have a great angle, as I was 2 row behind Kipper for most of the game, but what I saw from the home team, I enjoyed immensely. i.e. Stajan’s goal was extremely clutch and GlenX’s second mark was a real nice snipe against Ward, who had made some absolutely sick stops up until that point in the game.
Great atmosphere at the dome. It was full to the gills and the crowd was ready for excitement, especially when Mayers (shift+6? anyones?) decided to TAKE THE MAN DOWN, even though my seat mates and I were murmuring instigator long before the replay came on.
Our usher seemed completely convinced the Kotalik move was a precursor to a trade with Dallas for Richards, but I’m still not sold. We’ll see. Maybe Big D really wants Hagman back, at any cost?
I think the only conceivable way Richards is traded is if Dallas gets a star goalie back
Which is a move I’m fully willing to facilitate :-) as long as a servicable goalie (above NHL average, let’s say in the 0.920-0.925 EV save% range) can be acquired at the same time.
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 6:26 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t think anyones forgotten theat he’s still available but acquiring him seems rather unneeded in lieu of recent events.
I haven’t followed his career this year, took a quick look at BTN and looks like he’s getting a ton of offensive opportunities though.
Funny thing is there’s some unlucky bastard by the name of Nate Thompson who’s starting nearly 3 of every 4 shifts in the defensive zone. Only regular forward on the Lightning to do so. And he’s getting shelled, poor bastard.
In any case I think it was shep_ who mentioned Tanguay’s shoulder might be holding him back. I wonder if there’s any truth to that.
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 7:43 AM PST up reply actions
Off topic.
RCleave, I noticed the other day you linked to an old article of Tom Benjamin’s regarding puck position. I read it and I thought, “hey what good hockey sense this guy has”.
I think he’s lost it, or maybe never had it. Look at his latest article:
http://canuckscorner.com/tombenjamin/?p=1429
Is Sedin on the top of the leaderboard really a “surprise”? As in nobody knew it could happen?
I think when you take a fantastic EV player like Sedin who is used to playing tough minutes, and you give him really really soft minutes, he will produce at a higher level. Combine that with a upward swing in SH% (which is unpredictable for any single player but guaranteed that a certain proportion of players will see such luck this season) and it’s not at all inconceivable for such a guy to lead the league in scoring at some point.
And of course most teams would never do this, they need their best players to play tough minutes. In the case of VAN a switched-on Canucks fan could probably have seen it coming a mile away, they have the luxury of a salary-controlled difference maker in Kesler and since the Sedins and Kesler don’t play together, one or the other will have to play softer minutes.
In any case I’ve read the guy sporadically and I don’t see the type of insight that he displayed in years past. Grade A homer on things like this, Burrows infractions, etc. Which is his right but really I expected more for someone who had the brains to write that puck position article (although I recall his posts in the comment section of that article didn’t impress me either).
Tom Benjamin is a really smart cat. The thing with him is, he doesn’t buy into any of the new metrics so he doesn’t bother to keep up with discussions on corsi, zone start and how they can effect scoring. He’s implicitly aware of how things like that, but he’s dead-set against the new stuff.
Which means he probably isn’t aware that the Sedins are seeing a ridiculous amount of offensive zone draws. And I doubt he’s looked at the SH%. That’s stuff you can’t really notice – you have to look it up.
I think that’s right. He gets the “how” part, but doesn’t necessarily pay attention to the manipulations that coaches use to goose offence from certain guys.
To be honest, since the first year or so after the lockout, I mostly read Tom when there’s an off-ice issue involving league finances or labour matters. He’s not a lawyer, but I do believe that stuff is still in his professional wheelhouse, IIRC.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 4, 2010 7:13 AM PST up reply actions
Depends on what you look for in the game I think.
For instance, an ongoing trend of soft minutes (in one sense of the term or another) can’t be missed, especially if you’re getting a ton of them. Gio on this team for instance, I might see him always in the OFF zone and the first instinct might be “damn he’s driving results but good”, until I see his opposition and realize it’s nobody I recognize.
Same with Sedin, I watch their games occcasionally and I wasn’t really looking for it because I’m not interested in anything but seeing Vancouver lose. But all of a sudden I see one or both Sedins coming on the ice regularly with Hansen and Rypien and then I realize the other team’s 4th line is also on the ice. Then you see that the Sedins are almost never playing in the defensive zone, and then the PBP guy keeps gushing over Kesler’s defensive work. It can’t be missed there, the stats are useful for confiriming this kind of stuff but I would expect a switched-on Tom B to know this stuff, y’know?
And the luck factor… well one only has to look at performance vs. an established career averages and realize that an uptick of something like 40% in points is a product of a lot of things, but luck is involved for sure. If one believes that luck plays a huge role in hockey, that is, but I don’t see how anyone couldn’t see that after watching hockey for more than 10 games.
I didn’t pay much attention to stuff like this in early 2000s but I figure some of Jarome’s earlier seasons (esp. his +27 season in 01/02 or whatever it was) were the same. Softer minutes for a young-and-upcoming franchise winger. And his 07/08 season was the opposite, some really tough minutes (just behind Tanguay as far as overall effect on counting numbers) and near-100 point production.
In any case I think what I’m getting at is the new stats are useful for getting this detail game after game but an overall trend like Sedin getting soft minutes… I think that’s a part of watching the game, just can’t be missed. Maybe TomB hates the new stats so much that he subconscuiosly ignores context-of-icetime.
Which is unfortunate because context of icetime is so important, in some cases more so than ability, in terms of defining how counting numbers shake out.
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 7:14 AM PST up reply actions
I could write an article on this, but I think when you raise your awareness of new metrics you also can fundamentally change the way you watch the game. I know that I don’t think of hockey and watch hockey the same way I did just 5 years ago when I started writing about it.
It could just be an awareness of the phrases. I didn’t always watch hockey with “context of icetime” or “lucky bastard”, only the last couple years. But I could always feel it out when point production didn’t jive with things like how the guy looked, where he was in his career, etc
For example, Phaneuf with his 20 goal rookie season, as a defenceman. Obviously Phaneuf had and has a lot of talent but I was always afraid to fully believe just because he was a rookie at the time.
Turns out that feeling was just a higher-level proxy for “he’s good, but he was also a bit lucky to score on a lot of 5-on-3’s plus he was sheltered from the bad guys at the time”.
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 7:27 AM PST up reply actions
Bah edit feature needed.
I didn’t always watch hockey with “context of icetime” or “lucky bastard” in mind
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 7:40 AM PST up reply actions
Bah more editing
watch hockey with the phrases "context…
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 7:40 AM PST up reply actions
It’s funny, but the more I know hasn’t fundamentally changed the way I watch the game. It’s changed the way I watch the Flames, I guess, which is maybe your point. But I rarely pay attention to who is on the ice for the opposition – I just look through them to see what the Flames are doing, how they’re positioned, how they’re breaking out or forechecking. So, the concept of sheltering players or zone starts is still lost on me – I understand them but don’t look for them.
Yeah, I think luck is playing a huge part in how well the Sedins are doing. Am I surprised H. Sedin is leading the league in points? Yes, and I never ever would have picked him to lead either. Why? Because he’s never in his career been more than a PPG player (and until the last 3 seasons, wasn’t even close to that). A player who has played for what…8 or 9 seasons as the Sedins have, they don’t all of a sudden become league leaders overnight because they’re just that good…there has got to be other factors involved. I hate when the Canucks play the Flames because it seems as though you can pretty much count on one of the Sedins to score on some stupid lucky bounce or some shit. The same goes for Burrows, though he’s pretty much just been feeding off the Sedins, so its not surprising.
Age is key too.
If a guy progresses from good to elite from his 24 year old season to his 25 year old season… that’s not outside the range of reasonable expectations. It’s not likely, but it does happne.
At 29… you are who you are. You can decline (due to injury or just plain old aging robbing yuou of physical ability) and sometimes you improve if you heal from a previous chronic injury (often though.. you’re just a shell of your former self), but overwhelmingly you are who you are.
(incidentally this is part of why I want to trade Kipper, but I feel I’m in the overwhelming minority in that… it’s all good, every discussion needs a contrarian)
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 8:22 AM PST up reply actions
Also, the difference between Jarome of 07/08 and Jarmoe of 08/09 was drastic, I think on the ice we could see that despite his production levels being very similar, the two were different beasts entirely. The fact that he was producing without doing the important stuff (winning battles, driving to the net with authority)… indirectly in pointed to better circumtances.
And the numbers eventually showed that was true.
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 7:19 AM PST up reply actions
Overall, obviously a very good effort. Officiating in this league gives me a migraine, because I’m a firm believer that while penalties shouldn’t be even between the teams, they should reflect the flow of hte play. The Flames were the better team all night, and yet every marginal call went against them. I’m not saying that there’s bias, just poor game management by the stripes.
Of all the lines, I was probably least happy with the IggyLeafs – I thought Iggy was very solid the first half the game, but fell off noticably the last half (after the nice goal). I wonder if he needs more ice time 5v5? He has always struck me as a player that does better with more ice, for example when double shifted (although maybe that’s a QualComp thing – as noted above, I don’t look for that during the game). With all the PK yesterday, he was one guy that seemed to get lost.
The BBB line was fun to watch, though, and can’t complain about GlenX. In fact Nystrom looked like he played his best game in a while, both PK and 5v5. He is a natural 4th liner! And with a teammate who’s not (Glennie), he looks even better.
Officiating in this league gives me a migraine, because I’m a firm believer that while penalties shouldn’t be even between the teams, they should reflect the flow of hte play. The Flames were the better team all night, and yet every marginal call went against them. I’m not saying that there’s bias, just poor game management by the stripes.
Endorse this fully. The way the game plays out, most infractions (called or uncalled) happen when a player is defending. That’s why defencemen usually have negative penatly differentials.
So it boggles my mind that Carolina spends all night defending and comes out with a +6 penalty differential.
So either:
1.) The Flames were too agressive, have been all season! (so says our opposition anyway)
OR
2.) The refs have their heads up their asses, been this way all season.
I’d buy #2 if you’re selling.
by R O on Feb 4, 2010 7:58 AM PST up reply actions
Well, part of the problem last night at least was Cory Sarich. Delete his 4 minor penalties (all of which were legit calls) and things are least closer to even.
If the fourth was legit, they could have called Carolina on the same thing three times. And the Flames a couple more times too.
In the second it was like clockwork. Every time the Flames started to reassert themselves, Joanette would be there to make a call. The first few were legit, the last few he had to pretty much invent.
Oddly enough, the whistles went away entirely in the third. Do you seriously expect me to believe that the two teams just suddenly stopped committing infractions?
We most certainly should have come out on the wrong end of the stick in overall powerplays, but last night was a joke.
The BBB line was fun to watch
Indeed it was. Frankly, all the lines were fun to watch last night. It was a delightful departure from the Flames this year who for the most part have been boring to watch. I thought throughout the game that no matter who was on the ice there was a chance that the Flames would score. To be honest last nights team looked like last seasons team (with Cory Sarich playing the role of “I take really bad penalties” Todd Bertuzzi) except with better defense. Yay forward depth!
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