Flames Post-Game: Post-Upheaval Letdown
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 8:05 AM PST
147 comments
Before the game began, my hopes for a win were rather muted given the chaos surrounding the team. I expected a disorganized, perhaps frenetic effort from the Flames but in truth they didn't even manage that. The infusion of four fresh bodies resulted in the same bland, lackluster effort the club has showcased a number of times at the Dome recently, culminating in a 18-shot, zero-goal snoozer of an evening.
On display were now well-familiar issues with this iteration of the Calgary Flames: an inability to control the puck in the neutral zone, an inability to draw penalties and, most galling of all, an inability to get pucks on net. The Flames actually marginally won the possession battle at ES last night. However, Emery had to stop just 32% (16 of 49) of the pucks Calgary fired at him. It's like the team's trainers do something strange to the players sticks. It's almost inexplicable at this point.
Also of note, Jarome Iginla played most of his night against Carter, Gagne and Pronger - and he got murdered. Stajan, Iginla's most regular linemate, didn't fare any better. The fault lies at the feet of both Butter and Iginla himself: the former for sending out his captain against the other team's best without the best possible linemates and the latter for playing some passive, uninspired hockey. Iginla's signature move has become skate into the zone, get pushed wide, stop, mis-handle the puck and then give it away. It was this very play that led to the back-breaking Claude Giroux tally last night and he does it more than once every, single game. He was, once upon a time, a guy who could do a lot with less but those days are clearly in the past. At some point, the Flames head coach has to realize this.
Overall, the new kids played well enough. Stajan was thrown head first into the deep end of the pool, so I'm not going to hold his rough night against him. Niklas Hagman was one of the few players who showed poise and creativity with the puck on his stick in the offensive zone while White had a steady enough evening once he settled down. Mayers took an ill-deserved penalty, but his ability to skate was in evidence at least.
Of course, the real story (as predicted) ended up being the Jokinen-Kotalik trade which was consummated after the game. The move has created more questions than it answered, so the Flames community - either breathing fire or waiting with baited breath - is buzzing like a disturbed wasps nest. And for good reason. Ales Kotalik is a fairly defective NHL hockey player - so was Jokinen, granted, but at least his contract ends in the off-season. Chris Higgins is something of reclamation project who may land anywhere on the roster, but he's really not the issue here.
There are really two schools of thought on the subject:
1.) Sutter has basically lost his marbles and has gone jeans model shopping. Even this doesn't make sense on it's face because Kotalik's counting numbers are dreadful this season and, outside of one alright year, have never been all that impressive. He is a pure PP/shoot-out specialist. Fleury would have been the same for this roster, but he would have cost less than 1/3rd the price.
2.) Sutter has another, bigger trade up his sleeve. Looking over the Flames now forward-bloated roster, it's hard to ignore the fact that there's a potential quantity for quality swap coming. Again, though, assuming Kotalik is part of the deal is problematic: who else would want him? And if he isn't part of the hypothetical trade, you're again stuck with his dreadful contract ($3M/year) for another two seasons. That's spending 60% of Jokinen's cap savings on similar (probably worse) player till 2012. That's Rene Bourque's raise.
It's almost like being stuck in David Lynch movie. Everything seems so purposeful, but none of it makes a lick of sense. I'll choose, for now, to forgo the torches and pitchforks to see if Sutter indeed has another swap in mind. If so, this all may soon be a funny afterthought. if not, then Lynchian nightmare.
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Lynch
My favorite movie is Eraserhead. Well, not really. I didn’t understand it. Baffling, like Sutter.
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 8:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I dont think anyone has a favorite Lynch movie (let’s exclude Dune for now – that’s not real Lynch). They just have one that disgusts them the least.
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 8:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it seems only the trendiest scenesters can interpret Lynch movies. I guess I am not that culturally aware or something.
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 8:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I tried to peruse the 1400 comments in the last two threads, and got a headache. At this point, this trade, the game, the last trade…all has been analyzed to death. And yet, I continue to want more…
I just hope when they beat the Hurricanes (an Oiler-like team) they don’t start feeling good about themselves again. Honestly, the only thing that matters now is wins. Get points in every game in February (from now on) and maybe we’ll all feel better about this last trade.
by maimster on Feb 2, 2010 8:15 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
i had a dream iggy was also on the move. if wayne gretzky can get traded, anyone can get traded.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 8:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I had a nightmare that we acquired Salo… not a good nights rest.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 8:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I said it in the game thread, but last night notwithstanding, if Sutter considers trading Iginla, he should just quit first.
No matter how much he declines, Iginla deserves to retire a Flame, and we should consider ourselves grateful that we had a player and person like him to represent us.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 8:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree. I agree (well, I guess I do both) that Sutter “cannot” trade Iginla because of the fallout. However, I think Iginla can and should be traded if he is unable to evolve into a player that can bring value every night, even if it’s no longer scoring and game-dominating power-forward type things.
He hasn’t been able to make this transition and it’s frighteningly painful to watch him slip further into suck.
That suck is so strong, it’s pulling the team down from within.
I honestly believe Joker, Phaneuf, Prust, Sjostrom and Aulie are gone because of Iginla. He could have got bigger return for less loss to the team, in performance, than emotional connection.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 8:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly believe that is bullshit.
Jokinen and Phaneuf utterly failed to live up to their paycheques – far more so than Iginla. I still hold out a ton of hope for Phaneuf’s future, but both wrote their own tickets out of town. Sjostrom, likewise, failed to deliver. Prust and Aulie were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Iginla NEEDS to be better, there is no doubt. And he is capable of it. But lets not blame him for the failures of others.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 8:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not the failure of others. The WHOLE team is failing. The WHOLE team is failing to live up to expectations, and achieve their contracts. Iginla is the leader, HE is not making any better value of his contract than Phaneuf or Jokinen.
YET, the mantra of this team has been: “we have to get someone to play with Iggy, repeat ad naseum”
If Iggy can’t play with anyone, and can’t adapt, it’s time to go. He’s the captain and first leader of this team AND it’s not getting better. AND he’s not getting better. He’s not even a PPG player anymore. I was hearbroken when they traded Theo Fleury, but it was the right move. It’s the same deal with Iggy. He only loses value from here, because he hasn’t been able to shift his role as Yzerman, Messier etc have done before him.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 8:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Go back to the Bouwmeester thread, before these trades, or back two months, or eariler. Everyone has been saying “Trade Phaneuf, Trade Kipper, Trade Joker”
I’ve said: trade Iggy.
Kipper is at least playing up to his contract. Why would we want to trade him? Cause he has a huge contract and could be all downhill from here.
WELL, Iggy has a BIGGER contract and HAS been downhill for the last two years, and it ain’t getting better. Watch the guy, he’s lost a step, he can’t evolve into a two way player, and him fighting isn’t ‘extra’ enough.
It’s time to go, while we can get an excellent return for him. I don’t want to see it either, but it’s the right business decision to make.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 8:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you’re probably right. From the perspective of winning hockey games it’d probably make this team better.
Still, I’m not heartless, I couldn’t stomach it.
by R O on Feb 2, 2010 8:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know it’s a brutal idea, and we’d all lose our minds, but we’d also get over it.
WHO on Earth could have imagined or wanted Theo Fleury to go? I grew up watching him, and died by the Flames side for years of suck and missing the playoffs, but I moved on.
Fleury was self-destructing, so it’s a bit different, but he still brought it every game, just with more penalties.
It is sometimes agonizing watching Iginla these days…I don’t know whats worse…a little bit at a time, or a big impact and then it’s done.
We’ve already lost Iggy, he’s been traded for Jarmoe. Just the rest of the league doesn’t realize it yet.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 8:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, maybe I’m wrong and I hope I am. Maybe I’m bailing on him to soon, like I accused people of doing on Kipper. Now, I say “see…I told you Kipper was awesome still”
Maybe it would be the same with Iggy in reverse. I just don’t see it. I saw the defense in shambles, and the stats didn’t match. I saw Kipper make save after save and get beat on a rebound. I saw him, in his body language, give up soft goals after brutal plays in front of him. I really believed he had more.
I don’t see it with Iggy. I don’t see the fire, and the stats are against weak teams. I feel like I haven’t seen him dominate a tough team in months, if at all these last two years.
It kills me to think it, but I don’t believe he has it in him, and it’s makes it worse that he can’t seem to do the “other” things
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. We could get a huge return for him too. Who cares if its ‘heartless’ for the fans to suggest this, but Iginla hasn’t shown much ‘heart’ in a while. I remember after how pathetic he was in the Chicago playoff series and I thought either Iggy comes back with a bang next year, or he is finally done. I think more and more its the latter.
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He dismantled VAN and PIT to kick off the losing streak, so there was that. Also he won the Nash battle (that’s not an easy to do) against CBJ, even though Columbus is seiving out at the moment.
That got me excited, mostly because you don’t usualy luck your way into destroying some of the best like that. Unfortunately since then it’s been disappointment after disappointment.
It’s a bit galling in that it seems like Iggy does have performances like that in him, but the concern is more about the scoring. If he’s not scoring it’s big news. I don’t know if he changs his game accordingly, but I liked it better when he wasn’t scoring and dominating, because you knew the scoring would come eventually.
by R O on Feb 2, 2010 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it is pretty arbitrary to argue this stuff, although RO and Lawrence bring up good points for sure. He will never get traded- Sutter gets fired before Iginla gets traded. I wish Iggy would take a pay cut though… Sigh
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on that. You don’t put up less than a ppg and get 7 million a year.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 2, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, there’s been flashes. It was the same last year though. It’s really obvious this season, however, because the team is much worse so Jarome isn’t starting in the offensive zone all the time and he doesn’t get 5 minutes of PP ice per night.
I don’t know anymore with Iginla. Most nights, he looks like part of the problem to me. And then he beats he crap out of the Sedins.
If we could just see him with truly good linemates for more than a game or two, it would make things easier.
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yah we still dont know if the answer has been here all along- BORK and Lanks.
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I know there have been flashes too. It’s just dinsconcerting when Ovechkin dominates…they win 7-1. The Sedins…it’s 5-3. Brodeur, it’s 1-0 with 40 saves.
Even when Iggy has brought his best, we still lose. We’ve got great goaltending, super defense (on paper) and good depth scoring. That’s what makes me feel sick. How much is he dominating?
He looked awesome against the Oil, but that’s the Oil, and it’s those teams he seems to look awesome against.
Anyway, Rod is right, this is pointless. I guess I’m just airing my grievances.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 9:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to suggest you are heartless, Lawrence, you probably couldn’t stomach it either.
by R O on Feb 2, 2010 8:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Iggy played just fine with Langkow and Huselius.
Fuck the retards who kept on saying “we need a first line centre, we need a first line centre.” We had a first line centre, but the morons in the media and fanbase simply didn’t recognize. And this, ultimately does become a fault of Sutter: he listened to it. Instead of bringing in decent support for the team, he kept on grabbing useless players like Bertuzzi and Jokinen. Of course Iginla and the team were going to fail – we brought in players who are nothing but failures to play along side him.
Trading Iginla would be the worst fucking move this franchise has ever made. 100 times worse than the Gilmour trade.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 8:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Iggy is not going
Iggy hasn’t been playing as well as we’d like to the past couple of years, but I don’t think he should be traded. He should retire a Flame. He’s done a great deal for the organization.
Is he still a first line RW though?
by tsukemonoki on Feb 2, 2010 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
Bill Clement addressed this on the Flyers broadcast of the game.
He praised Langkow but said Langkow “isn’t the guy” to play with Iginla. He also questioned management’s decision to stick Jokinen with Iginla since Joker is “a shooting center.” Bill Clement thinks that Stajan will be a good match. Maybe the Flames should hire him for PR.
For what it’s worth, Flyers fans are starting to feel the same way about Simon Gagne that you all do about Iginla. The criticisms aren’t as loud – perhaps because Gagne is not the captain and does not earn quite as much – but the conflict is there. I can’t imagine him playing anywhere other than Philadelphia, just like I can’t imagine Iggy being anywhere other than Calgary.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Feb 2, 2010 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone says that. Langkow walked into Calgary, got paired with Iginla and became a 30 goal player. Everyone said we needed someone better. So what do we go out and get? A guy who was billed as a 30 goal scorer. In terms of the first line, it was a lateral move in the best case scenario. Unfortunately, since that trade, Langkow hasn’t been half the player he was, while Iginla has been sliding for a bit longer.
I had hopes for the Jokinen trade last year as part of a diversification of the offence move, and because we were injured like mad. Boy did that deal ever backfire. As RO noted somewhere else in this thread, the few times Langkow and Iginla have been paired, the team has done very well. I just don’t understand why Brent won’t stick with hit. Hopefully Stajan is the answer, but if not, hopefully Brent finally takes a good look at what is right under his nose.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I wouldn’t say Sjostrom failed to deliver. I mean, I never had high expectations of him so it was hard for him to not meet them. Prustrom started out fantastic (Remember those solid game they played at the beginning, hard to believe 2/3 of them are no longer with the team… watch your back Nyzerman). Then the “Moss as top six” project fell through and the Sutters insisted on playing the sideshow dancing bear (McGrattan) and the revolving cast on the top line LW began. Really, Sjostrom was just a victom of bad circumstance IMO. I’m not sad to see Fredden go since he’s basically just replacement level but I wouldn’t say he failed.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 8:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i think he was well woth his contract.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He was never the same when he was accused of being a Flamingo by Don
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I loved the move to bring Sjostrom in, but one goal and mediocre defence was well below what was expected from him. Whatever the malaise that affects this franchise is, he caught it bad.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i think daz thought he would be the next bourque-like reclamation project and it didn’t work. just because he was an offensive threat with the hitmen doesn’t nullify the following 5 or 6 years…. shit, the same can be said about jokinen and dion…. and probably the incoming shift of newbies.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 9:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Darryl was that deluded. If anything, I think Sutter was hoping Sjostrom could replace Lombardi: fast guy, good PKer, get you about 10 goals in a good year.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly. but that shouldn’t have been an EXPECTATION…. and, to be honest, he probably would’ve hit that marker on a team that could score.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it. Sjostrom has forever been replacement level in the NHL. He’s fast, but that’s all there is to it. Lombardi is an offensive dynamo by comparison.
I think Sutter just wanted another established NHLer for the bottom end of the roster for cheap.
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I think that should be the expectation. Whatever Brent’s system is, it should not be halving (or worse) the goal production of players. Nobody expected Sjostrom to be an offensive dynamo, but he should not have been an offensive wasteland either.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 9:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am of the mind
that iginla should be allowed to try and retire a Flame, BUT I am open to (in a few years) his going elsewhere to get some return and to give him a shot at the cup (as I am not seeing anything right now that indicates Calgary is ready to go into the 2nd round of the play-offs, let alone a SCF). It is only fair to him to have another crack at it (a la Ray Bourque).
by brisulph on Feb 2, 2010 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And that I agree with too. If Iginla decides he wants to try and pull a Ray Bourque, then you find a good spot for him and wish him well. If he wants to end here, he ends here, imnsho.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 9:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If he went to the Oilers, and Moreau was still Captain, would he pull a Sakic and let Iggy hoist the cup first?
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure. But if Iggy skated into the offensive zone with the Cup, Moreau’d likely hook him down to the ice.
by Robert Cleave on Feb 2, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no way. sakic had already won a cup at that point. totally different.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We were talking about moving him to a contending team here…
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The one thing I’ll note about last night… at least the new guys were wining faceoffs. Langkow and Joker were horrible on the dot.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 8:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Flames POT game?
First they deal away all there assets for nothing and NOW they’re dealing drugs too?
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 8:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
In that case I’d advise Sutter to stop sampling the product.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 8:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How did you make that “S” appear like magic? Can you do the same trick to get a creative forward, who doesn’t just skate straight up the boards into Pronger like Iggy did all last night.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 8:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone here think part of the problem may lie with the coaching?
by therealdeal on Feb 2, 2010 8:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
No way. I wouldn’t play Langkow with Iginla either, plus winning games is about reducing GAA.
by R O on Feb 2, 2010 8:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Even more than that though. I’m as confused as anyone as to why we would separate an effective combo but its not just those two lines not scoring or really even getting chances. It’s everybody.
by therealdeal on Feb 2, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah could be something sytemic. I mean the team is universally lousy at offense.
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 9:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to believe given how offensiely gifted the team was last year.
Fuck I’m gonna say it… I miss Keenan (Well, really I miss Cammi but evs). At least it was exciting hockey even when we lost.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the way we played in the first carried through the game and we lost, that would have been one thing. You could see in the first how everyone was assessing everyone else and trying to understand the capabilities of their new teammates.
But the utter lack of effort and desire in the final two periods was just disgusting.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 8:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Regehr is happy his old pal Kotalik is now his team mate
Kotalik just sat back on the bench after this one
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 8:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Man, THAT guy is 227? Regehr tossed him into the bench like he’s 125. Ok, so he HAS size, but doesn’t look like he can use it as a asset.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 8:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, that was Regehr at his peak.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 8:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
Kotalik got JACKED UP. Now I know why he didn’t want to come to CGY
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 8:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny you should mention it, fun fact according to the Flames website before all the trade insanity happened the second heaviest (in terms of Ibs) player on the Flames was Sjostrom (after McG).
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 8:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Man I wish I lived in Calgary. I would so be there.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn. I’d go if I could. Take a camera.
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Forget the camera. Take a megaphone and tell Kotalik the women are better in Russia.
And tell Sutter to fuck himself while you’re at it.
Poilitely, though :-)
by R O on Feb 2, 2010 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No way, wear a sandwich board in there that says:
F@CK
What’s next?
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 9:04 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
great idea ! i’ve got a sandwich board right here ! ;)
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 9:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Some guys in red jersey’s (Names TBD) I’m sure. Whatever Sutter is doing I hope he finishes as soon as possible. The team needs some stability more then anything else at this point (not to mention practice time).
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 9:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Kotalik isn’t on the ice today, can we assume something is up? I imagine he’s likely been packed for a while.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 9:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah hopefully he retires and Sutter gives him a job in the scouting department
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 9:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
well the 11am from newark was cancelled, but he could easily have flown thru toronto.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 9:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
what’s the point in darryl sutter press conferences ? that guy will never give a straight answer ever (not necessarily a bad thing but seriously what’s the point ?)
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just take what he says and assume the opposite!
by ArikJames on Feb 2, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because then he can be asked a question we can assume the real answer is the opposite of what he says? The second he said that he wanted to spread the money around I figured we’re going after a high-priced forward.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i was thinking this morning that it’s possible if kotalik doesn’t work out here, daz and him mutually cancel the contract and he goes back to russia. obviously not ideal considering what we gave up but it could ease the cap space.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 9:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Ok, this is a bit of a pointless question right now but...
How do bonuses affect the cap?
You need to keep the space if they get the bonuses yes? So it goes down as the full possibility?
I’m thinking that maybe it would be great to have guys on heavy bonus contracts and if they aren’t likely to meet their goals, wouldn’t that free up a bunch of cap space at the deadline? Then you could go shopping for rentals with the extra cash.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 9:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Bonuses can only be written into two kinds of contracts: Entry level and retirement (where the player is over 35).
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is off memory and reliability not guaranteed but…
For players with an over-35 or LTIR return bonus, it affects the cap for that season: i.e.: If we re-sign Conroy next year and give him a $500k bonus if he should play 75 games next year, that $500k counts against our cap until it is official that Conroy cannot achieve that bonus, then it comes off.
Rookie bonuses can be deferred to the next year. Some of those bonuses the Blackhawks players on their Entry Level deals have will eat Chicago’s cap next season, but not this.
by Resolute on Feb 2, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They’re gonna have a busy offseason I wager. A real nice position though… having locked up their very young outstanding core + Hossa. I imagine they’ll be getting a whole wack of draft picks for Versteeg, Sharpe, Buf and whatnot. If only they can move Campbell. Scary.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did Daz ever do his press conference re the Kotalik trade?
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 2, 2010 10:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
No point really. Trade a guy like Dion Phaneaf and you have to do a presser I’d say, Jokinen & Prust? Not so much. Particularily if your gonna do more stuff… may as well just wait until you’re done and do it all at once.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree actually. less than two weeks ago he sat infront of a group of fans/season ticket holders and announced that he absolutely made the right choice in trading a first round draft pick for olli jokinen because he’s a big, fast, puckmoving centerman. this was obviously classic darryl smoke & mirrors but i would like to know how he thinks kotalik/higgins is worth the same.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No one’s going to ask that question though… throw his words back in his face I mean. He’ll say that Jokinen was under-acheiving and he wanted to spread money out Kotalik 3M/Higgins 2.25 vs. Joker 5.25. But no one will expose his past statements on the subject. Besides which, if more moves are still to be made he can’t tip his hand to anybody less it scuttle his plans so what’s the point.
Not that I’m opposed to folk making him eat his words, if anyone should eat crow over it it’s Darryl afterall. But we won’t learn anything and I’d rather just see how this ultimately unfolds before getting some post-mortum on the trading season.
by Parallex on Feb 2, 2010 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
not that i’m aware of. is it cause something else is up ?
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We can still hope, right?
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Feb 2, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
you comin’ to practice at 2 or whuh ? :P
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I will try to be there.It will be easy to find me- I’ll be the one crying.
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Feb 2, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Needle in a haystack, good sir.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 2, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t make it today. Although I propose a Blogger Meet-up for the next PPV game.
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Feb 2, 2010 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i’ve been proposing blogger meetups all year. nobody (local) ever seems interested besides me and mikeH. tomorrow’s game is untelevised but i think i’m attending. perhaps march 27 v. bruins if anyone cares at that point about this team at all.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry. feb 11 v. stars.. i’m SO in.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cool Beans. Try and put a curse on Sutter when you go to the practice.
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Feb 2, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think another deal is happening unless he just needs Kotalik in the lineup tomorrow and is trading him after the game against the canes.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 10:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Unless he is trading him to the Canes. Maybe Kotalik ky-boshed (how do u spell that word, lol) the deal because he didn’t want to play in Edmonton, so they had to wait til today. Please tell me they’re flipping Kotalik for someone. Whitney? Cullen? Jussi Jokinen? Anyone!
by RossCreek on Feb 2, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe all this time he got the wrong Jokinen
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That is possible but I would have to figure it would be a 2 for 1 to get Whitney/Draft Pick.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Cullen & Jussi Jokinen for Kotalik, Lundmark & a pick/prospect
Come on, I’m grasping at straws. Tell me something’s cookin!
by RossCreek on Feb 2, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Man, the math ain't looking good.
I just checked the standings:
We have 62 pts in 56 games.
Many are predicting you’ll need 95 pts to get in the playoffs…some even say 98 in the west this year.
So we need at least 33 more points in 26 games (or a .636 win%)
Basically that means we have to go 6-3-1 at least, from here until the end of the season, just to have a chance. WHILE we gel with up to 6+ new players.
We have 14 games on the road and 12 at home.
So yeah, 6-3-1, 6-3-1, and 4-2-1 for 35 pts. for a 97 point total to be likely 8th. Starting Wednesday. Just to play the Hawks or Sharks.
I’m thinking that is gonna be tough.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 10:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
And March just like it was last year is no fun this year, maybe worse and this doesn’t include a two week road trip.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 10:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Man and our schedule after the olympics is f*ing brutal. We only play non-playoff teams 6 times and 4 of those are Minny.
Read this list:
Det x2, SJ x2, Col x2, Van x2, Chi, Bos, Wash, Ott, NJ, Pho - Minny x4, NYI, Ana
We’re f*cked this year. Let’s pack it in and trade for the future.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
These last three days have been bad to be a Flames fan. For me at least.
We better win 5 of the next 6 or we’re done.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And with only Iggy, Kipper, Connie & Reggie still on this team from 04’ I don’t think that’s enough to usher the inner 2004 Team. (I’m desperate)
I agree it’s just about over.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather finish 9th.
Losing is hard to watch, and bad efforts are hard to watch. To properly tank this group has to really stink and I don’t think I could stomach it. We’re not Oil fans after all.
Plus I’m not at all convinced that a tank job will buy a good future unless you pick really high (top 5). I think Kent or someone else did some work showing that useful NHL players only emerge out of the first round, what, 50% of the time? And that’s skewed towards the top of the draft, that’s for sure.
by R O on Feb 2, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I was reading somewhere that the Flames draft success since 1998 (Turning Draftees in to NHLers) is only 9 or 10%.
It’s not just a Sutter thing outside of core group of the 1988 Cup team this team just can’t draft very well.
Go figure the few good years that Cliff Fletcher had drafting built this team into Cup Contenders year in and year out.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hockeynomics had a look at the Flames success at turning picks into NHLers. I believe they were one of the worst teams in the league at it. It was over a fairly long timeline too.
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it’s about 50% in the first round, heavily skewed to top 10. After the first round, it drops to about 30% in the second and plummets almost out of site after that.
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 10:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is why I don’t put much value into draft picks. I saw somewhere else too that an estimate of a first round draft pick’s value is $400k.
Now if you trade a first round draft pick for a useful player who is undervalued by 500k, say a Bourque type, it might not seem like a win on the surface but hard cash says it is. And if it’s a second round pick, you’re laughing.
I could live without drafting in the first, second or third rounds for the next decade, as long as we have useful players filling out the roster for the next decade. In fact you could make a good argument based on cash and wins (the important stuff) that it might be the correct way to go, at least for a team that is annually competitve and thus drafts low every year.
by R O on Feb 2, 2010 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
underpaid, not undervalued.
Also there’s the time aspect – first of all who wants to wait for these guys to grow up, and secondly time is money and a useful player now is worth a lot.
by R O on Feb 2, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s how the Flames have made their living through Signing and Trades and as long as Daz is at the Helm that’s how it’s going to be.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It renders high draft picks really valuable, but after that the utility drops precipitously.
by Kent Wilson on Feb 2, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, if you look at the list of 1st overall draft picks you see a bunch of guys who you can build a team around, much less become career NHLers.
by Avalain on Feb 2, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m going to the Panthers and Lightning games this weekend. Actually sitting behind Butter, Kotalik, & Co. (oh the joys of being a hockey fan and living in FL) on Saturday night. You guys want me to hold up any signs? I was thinking maybe “…Kotalik my balls”
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 2, 2010 10:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I guess the good thing is that Kotalik has been yet to be given a number so with some our friends around here going to practice bring binoculars if you can’t see very well.
If you see this man
That equals bad.
If you don’t let the speculation and wait begin.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
he kind of looks like the love child of Danny Briere and Matt Lombardi
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 2, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad he can’t play like them combined, It would be like Jordan Eberle in 10 Years.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“You may run like Hayes. but you hit like shit.” – Lou Brown
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 2, 2010 11:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great movie, Great quote, Pretty much sums this up.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's remember the good times. When our hopes and optimism for Olli were so, so high........
Fist Game in Philly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLwavsTWDQ0
Detroit Comeback:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ6hISN-s3A
The Toronto Trick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxrVT7u3uds
by Rod Blogojevich on Feb 2, 2010 11:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Funny all of those came on the Brier Road Trip.
Somebody needs to turn down the heat in the Darryl Sutter's home.
by CofRed on Feb 2, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s put further speculation aside for a minute, cause that’s pointless right now the way Sutter works.
SO, could Daz be thinking of it this way? (To try to make sense of it)
1. Ian White covers Dion’s EV minutes + whatever else he brings (even if that’s very little)
Ales Kotalik covers Dion’s PP presence + what ever else he brings (even if that’s 0)
We save 2.5 million today, and 2 million going forward. until the end of Kotaliks contract (which is shorter than Phaneuf’s term)
2. Matt Stajan + Chris Higgins + Nik Hagman + Mayers are better/more bodies/morediverse than Jokinen + Prust +Sjostrom
We lose 6.5-8.3 = 1.8million, but most of that is in FA’s, who we can let walk @ year’s end. So really it’s 1.8*.33 = 592k in rental fees, worst case and a fair 2 year-3mil. contract in Hagman for two years.
3. Hope to HELL that 2 of 3 of these offensive players gel and exceed expectations (Kotalik, Stajan, Higgins) , because the other two – Phaneuf and Joker, were certainly not, and we’ve lost 12 of 14. The rest is bonus?
I’m really trying to be optimistic here.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 11:40 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
As far as the first point goes, White is going to want a bigger raise than 500k to sign. The Flames miiiiight save 1 million on Dion between those two, but I hope to sweet baby Jesus that if Kotalik is actually being used as a replacement point shot, that he gets dumped at the end of the season. Like I said before, off a cliff.
The rest of that does make pretty good sense. Stajan or Hagman alone will be equal to/better than Jokinen for less money, and that entire group should be pretty serviceable, even if they don’t exceed expectations.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 2, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, as I said before…unless we spin him again, which I don’t see anyone biting on, or buy him out (which would make you ask “why get him initially?”) then he’s with us for 2 more years @ 3 million. Kotalik will (I hope) bring something more than his shot even if it’s 20-30 points.
Maybe White re-signs for 1 million more? we still save 1.5million. I don’t think White can demand 2million/year can he? He was scratched something like 10 games, and that’s by the Leafs!
I know I’m really looking hard here, but…what else are we supposed to do right now?
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 12:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he could get 2-3 mil if he plays well for the Flames the rest of the season, considering he’d be a top 4 defenseman, and the number of points he’s got.
by SmellOfVictory on Feb 2, 2010 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
kotalik has a NMC. so if he doesn’t want to go, he doesn’t go. also ? your calculations don’t include what “new #3” will cost next year.
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, they do include that. If White wants more than 2-2.25 million per year, I’d laugh him out of Calgary.
by LawrenceS on Feb 2, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on how they both do. If they play well enough to warrant that kind of increase, then give it to them.
Go Flames Go
by Justin Azevedo on Feb 2, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
his NMC no longer applies unless the Flames choose to uphold it…its gone…
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 2, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nice breakdown…and optimistic or not you may be on to something actually. i do agree with SmellO’s comment below that AK needs to get thrown from a cliff at season’s end(extreme option) or at least set adrift with his towel swimsuit on a yacht immediately after his exit interview in April (passive option). he might suffice as the point replacement for Dion for the remainder of the season…but this should not be permanent move.
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 2, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
personally, i’ve convinced myself that kotalik is the second coming of håkan loob. shhhhhhhh……. ;)
by walkinvisible on Feb 2, 2010 12:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Funny, but after reading 1000 comments, my expectation for Kotalik are so low he can’t help but exceed them. Maybe that’s the plan, trade a guy who chronically underachieves relative to expectations to one who overachieves relative to much lower expectations.
by maimster on Feb 2, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I heard he’s gonna be looking for 3-3.5.
2.5 works for me.
by RossCreek on Feb 2, 2010 12:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who? White? I’d go 2.75 over 4 years.
Go Flames Go
Where Ales Kotalik is the saviour of the franchise. Yuck.
by Justin Azevedo on Feb 2, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
there you go justin…split the baby
"Where do you go from here, Dion?" "I go to Toronto."
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
by KingJafi on Feb 2, 2010 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Leafs fan here
The rumour is White was asking for 3.5mil a year before we traded him
by Huey2k2 on Feb 2, 2010 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
B. Sutter on AM640 Toronto with Dreger this morning
*Some interesting comments near the beginning from Darren, about Flames’ owner Edwards being “hands on” ….
http://www.640toronto.com/HostsandShows/Podcasts/Episodes.aspx?PID=1058
Sweet Mary … Brent needs to lighten up and act a little more enthusiastic … answers the critics who say Flames hockey is “boring” … lol
by Calgarian in SJ on Feb 2, 2010 2:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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