Flames/Sharks Post-Game - Total Collapse
by Kent Wilson on Jan 18, 2010 9:31 PM PST
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We'll forgo the usual analysis. The stats won't tell us anything more than we know already.
Post your rants here.
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…..aaaaaand once again you prove (here, and without words) why you are one of my favorite minds, kent.
Want a dim silver lining? How about Bourque and Langkow somehow coming out of that massacre relatively unscathed??
in terms of corsi ? cause langks, at least, didn’t exactly have a good night.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:43 PM PST up reply actions
Lanks and friends was pulled away from the Thornton trio by Sutter at every opporutnity, so they didn’t have the hardest job tonight. Lanks in particular actually started the most out of all the Flames in the OFF zone.
Iggy started an amazing 9 times in his own zone, jsut once in the Sharks zone. Corresponds with what I saw (a ton of defensive responsibility), he wasn’t up to the task tonight though.
Just in case you thought tonight was the worst ever
Happy to help put things in perspective. :)
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
you’re a good man, bruce mccurdy. ps: any relation to patrick ?
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:39 PM PST up reply actions
Probably, but distant.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 18, 2010 10:38 PM PST up reply actions
Very disappointing night. Sharks obviously deserved the win but I’m more concerned about the outchancing to be honest. Iginla needs to be better, he’s playing with a still-capable Conroy after all.
And Sutter, hopefully he learns he’s not that clever a coach. Just play your best against their best, douchebag.
i could easily see this as being a problem for ol’ brent.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
It really is that simple, is it not? Your good players should play against their best players. But I agree with Kent: I don’t think he knows who his best players are past Iggy.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 9:41 PM PST up reply actions
hey you guys … don’t be down … you know every team goes thru one of these … we’ve had our own “not so hot” moments this season … you just brush it off and look forward to the next game.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
by ang6666 on Jan 18, 2010 9:40 PM PST reply actions
we had 5 in a row not long ago … very depressing … but you aren’t the Leafs or Canes … so you have something to look forward to … :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
by ang6666 on Jan 18, 2010 9:43 PM PST up reply actions
i would suggest we’re about one elite power forward and a couple of defensemen away from being the leafs. i may attempt to tackle this comparison at some point.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:45 PM PST up reply actions
That video is awesome.
I feel sympathy for you guys, and not to rub it in but…
It’s been an amazing night for sharks fans :)
No need to apologize. Your team did what it was supposed to. Congrats.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 18, 2010 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
Nothing can be said.
And with the Shithawks in town on Thursday this could get even worse.
I want my Scoring please.
I just checked the boxscore what the hell happened with GlenX, Nystrom and Conroy? -5, -4, and -5 respectively. Yuck.
Wow, I’m so glad I missed this game.
Projected TSN story tomorrow
January 19, 2010
It has been reported that Darryl Sutter has been relieved of his duties as general manager of the Calgary Flames. Little known Kent Wilson has been named his replacement.
We can only hope.
You have my vote, Kent!
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
or murray. i’d rather sather than murray.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:48 PM PST up reply actions
obviously i’d rather pretty much anyone else (håkan loob would be my pick, hands down)
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
Doug MacLean?
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 18, 2010 10:40 PM PST up reply actions
On a completely off topic that is admiteddly pretty cool to know they can emplode a building with such accuracy that that will go down and cause likely no damage to anything around it.
kinda like the WTC if you don’t mind me sayin’.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
“one of the worst games i’ve maybe played in my career” says regehr. anyone else listening to this ?
is he crying? For the record I thought he was the 4th worst player on the team from what i saw.
err 5th. phaneuf should likely be shot for his performance tonight. not to kill him. just wound him. Then we have an excuse. Someone will be a dick and then all we have to say is “dude, buddy got shot. what do you evpect?”
And so it was, he got beat by Setoguchi so badly. And it wasn’t just footspeed, he was waaaay too high and didn’t back off nearly fast enough.
That was one bad play amongst many for him. And his partner.
So…anyone else with me on the ‘forwards drive results’ bus?
Sure. There are plenty of nights where that’s mostly so. He and Dion were terrible, but the forwards are still the key most nights, and that’s the place that needs the fix.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 18, 2010 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
i honestly think it’s the path of least resistance: he’s doing SOMETHING to change the chemistry, he brings youth and speed, it’s a home game (not ideal opponent, mind you) and doesn’t have to ultimately pay for it permanently by dealing roster players or prospects or draft picks.
ps: if i’m right, daz is as good as done.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:57 PM PST up reply actions
i’m actually serious, here. dress him over conroy (who was awful). brent could shelter him more or less, give him easy minutes or bench him, as the case may be. if it fails, no harm done.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
i’m not even suggesting it’s a good idea, i’m suggesting it would be the first step towards desperate.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
Oh, I know. It would be the move of an obviously desperate man, given Backlund’s results in the AHL is all.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 18, 2010 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
I think subjecting the “future of the franchise” to a loss they will almost definitely suffer on thursday seems like a very bad idea to me. He wont make them win, your just simply throwing him out there to have a real bad time…
i’m just fascinated to see what he’ll do. cause he has to do SOMETHING.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 10:03 PM PST up reply actions
We join the Columbus Blue Jackets as the most f’ed up team this season. Does anyone know the worst beating in NHL history let alone after the lockout.
I want my Scoring please.
From Canucks History...
29March 1, 1992
The Canucks pummel the Calgary Flames 11-0 at Pacific Coliseum for the most resounding victory in team history. Trevor Linden, Sergio Momesso and Garry Valk each score twice while the power play goes 6-for-10. The next day, Doug Risebrough quits as Flames coach.
Chin up, flames fans! It could have been worse!
That was back during a time when teams scored a lot more, however. Relatively speaking, this one is probably worse.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 18, 2010 10:44 PM PST up reply actions
You gotta be kidding. 9-1?
Just a vague outsider opinion….trade Jokinen. That guy is poison. Everywhere he goes spells doom.
Butter… heh, I like that. My wife calls him Golam. I’m surprised he made himself available to the media. I’d just fume.
Not normally mine, KingJafi uses it as a rule.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 18, 2010 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks for the cred but...
…I gotta give it to my girlfriend. My dog’s name is Harvey (as in the Hound) Butters (as in the South Park character)…and some point last year there was a typo on TV during the playoffs where they spelled Butter’s name B. utter on TV…she pointed that out to me and thought it was funny that someone in the league was named Butter and started saying that it was the dog’s favorite coach. Little did I know Butter would become the Flames coach in a month’s time. Now we both refer to him as Butter and it’s only natural I do so here as well.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
The best solution: just play the next game.
It’d be nice to get another forward but the time for that is last summer, or the trade deadline, or next summer. Maybe it would’ve been nice 10 games in when we were winning and playing like this (not quite as bad but still getting outchanced), we had leverage then.
But no, no matter how many smart people said “it can’t last!” Flamesland was still all over the WINS and GOALS.
yup, lots of casualties tonight.
This one isn’t on Kipper at all. He wasn’t good, but the club gave up 29 scoring chances – and that was with the Sharks on cruise control for half the game.
He just had a night where he couldn’t steal one.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
BTW Kent does it piss you off too? We begged them not to acquire Jokinen, instead they give him a prominent role. We begged them to get more forwards, they did not. We beg Sutter to play his good players in the situations the team needs them to play to win, he does not.
We also begged them to trade Kipper, obviously he’s turned it around (or gotten lucky) but I still see that move as a win if we did it.
Just galling, some of the things that guide decision making at the helm of this team.
I don’t think we should trade Kipper. He and Iggy may be the only reasons the past 3 or 4 years have gone as well as they have.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 10:05 PM PST up reply actions
I’m actually past the point of anger with this stuff RO. I call this the “Sutter equilibrium”, which I accepted as par for the course awhile ago.
He makes good moves every year – and manages to always counter-balance them with errors. And the errors are typically easily identified. The Sutter equilibrium.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 18, 2010 10:06 PM PST up reply actions
Trading Kipper was never a solution though the backend of his contract is an absolute toxic biohazard and you probably would want to get rid of him sooner than later.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
?? contract is front loaded. cap hit same the way thru.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
I think he means that given Kipper’s age at the end, it’s potentially an untradeable contract with that sort of cap hit if his play returns to last year’s level.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 19, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
thanks again, bob, for translating what i should already inherently understand and (naturally) agree with. :)
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
Do we think this team will honestly change or something will change if the rest of the week doesn’t go well?
I want my Scoring please.
I don’t really know. The Flames don’t have a lot of wiggle room and they lack in trade pieces.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 18, 2010 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
Nope.
And honestly if they change something just because of this weeek I’m going to be very pissed. That would be symptomatic of a very unstable ownership group.
If they want to fire Sutter because he didn’t get us another good forward, or if they fire him if he doesn’t get one at the deadline… then I could get behind it.
Yeah… well I’ve pretty much declared this season the “Darryl Sutter is out of excuses” season. By which I mean if he can’t pull it together this season then I think the Upper-upper level folk really ought to at least consider moving in a new direction.
Fair enough. That’s an end of season decision and will (hopefully) be weighed based on Sutter’s merits and demerits.
This mid-season stuff though… especially after one blowout loss… it just won’t do.
Indeed. He’s got this season… in full… but really he’s invested in this team. He built it with the players he wanted (while paying up to the Cap) and went out and got his brother to coach them and wheeled away 3/4 of the top 60 draft picks this year and next. The future is now for the Sutter Era as far as I’m concerned.
Every time I think of Sex Panther, I think of Horcoff. He makes 2.5 million more and has less points. So, I guess it could be worse.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 10:07 PM PST reply actions
probably, hey ? i’m just quoting some of the stuff i’m seeing elsewhere.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 10:14 PM PST up reply actions
Let’s just say I can expect what the reception for the team will be on Thursday. Lately the Dome has lacked lets say Fire and this is a perfect reason why.
I want my Scoring please.
i would imagine a short leash. they won’t probably get boo’d off the top but if they look anything like mediocre or worse, they team will hear it, no doubt.
i bet the hawks are stoked.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 10:30 PM PST up reply actions
Pensive, turning to foul, if i were to guess.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 18, 2010 10:34 PM PST up reply actions
I just realized Lanks is the 2nd oldest player on the team. Huh.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 10:14 PM PST reply actions
Haha, I noticed there were over 500 on the GT. What’s the record in terms of comments on a single thread?
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 10:17 PM PST up reply actions
Amazing stat
Rene Bourque had 13+ minutes, was an even +/- had a fight and 2 minors. Is it just me or does he look like the only player that cares alot of the time?
I would guess he is. Maybe cares isn’t the right word, but you are on the right track.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 10:21 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t mention Gio because it’s a given he does well. Same with GlenX most of the time.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 10:22 PM PST up reply actions
I can’t wait to see what you have in store for the Trade target topic Kent.
I want my Scoring please.
haha, yeah I figure that’ll be a popular topic now.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 18, 2010 10:25 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe expand it into a “how can this team be entirely restocked with a better mix of players”?
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 19, 2010 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
Well, night all. Hopefully the next time we convene it won’t be such a debacle.
by Justin Azevedo on Jan 18, 2010 10:29 PM PST reply actions
So um…I heard a rumor that the Flames were actually stuck in traffic so they had to have their stunt doubles play the game for them tonight. Any truth to that?
Quote of the Century
It’s like those things in the mall: A map of the stores with an arrow saying "you are here." Only instead of the mall, the map is of the entire galaxy. And the arrow is to scale. You just can’t process the information. It screws your mind up in ways that make any reaction, apart from dumbfounded blinking and bleeding out of your ears, quite impossible.
-Colin
This last guy sounded completely hammered.
Surprised Darryl would take the time to call in.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 18, 2010 10:49 PM PST up reply actions
I actually was laughing a lot during the portion of Overtime I listened to last night. Steinberg had nothing to say for the some of the callers that just yelled at him like a principal in grade school. From what I heard, canning D.Sutt was the overwhelming theme of the night and Steinberg just kept pouring gas on the fire by saying he’s not the problem. Great stuff.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
actually, it was canning BRENT. which steinberg had zero patience for and would pretty much scold people for saying it.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 9:17 AM PST up reply actions
Leafs have an excuse really. They we’re expected to be bad and at least they have a good future at least.
One more thing a Congrats to Robyn Regehr on scoring is first goal since February 26th, 2008 against the Avalanche. A game the Flames lost 3-2 in OT, Reggy’s goal was also a Shorty interestingly enough.
I guess if you can find one bright spot on the night even it was Reggy’s goal even if he was hard on himself and that’s what you want to see the Flames are one team the rarely shows the emotion in the media and that could be something to build on.
Take this loss to heart and on Thursday you play your asses off and get a win over Chicago.
I want my Scoring please.
i like the guy on the fan that just suggested we could use a guy like alexander semin. maybe we could trade phaneuf for him ? seriously. this actually just happened.
(of COURSE i’m kidding).
steinberg drives me nuts. he is so opinionated. it’s brutal.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 10:53 PM PST up reply actions
I was doing an Internship at the Fan with Mike Richards and Steinberg was there and he’s actually on alright guy to talk to.
But I get where your coming from with him being very opinionated more so then Kerr when he’s doing OT.
I want my Scoring please.
I listened to both and while Steinberg can be very stubborn he never laid the smackdown to callers the way that Kerr did.
Of course I miss that very aspect of Overtime (the laying down of the smack to idiotic callers).
both are kindof brutal, when it comes to actually listening to people’s opinions. i called in last year (kerr) and was almost chided for suggesting that gio was better than the icetime he was getting from keenan.
hm. i guess i was right on that one.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
ps: thanks fan960 for putting music in overtop of the brent sutter interview that i’m trying to listen to.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
he’s killing me. “it’s NOT the coaching.” like, how about stating that as an opinion as opposed to a fact. and we wonder how the general public gets so mideducated. it annoys me like crazy.
y’know what ? i don’t really think it’s brent either, but there have been some valid arguments about him losing the room.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 11:12 PM PST up reply actions
Losing the room? I’d like to hear what was said about that.
My personal opinion (and I’m opinionated as you know) is that if the players are good enough then no amount of assholery could stop the team, there’s a ton of assholes already in the NHL. They’re not all angels.
well, nothing really eye-opening, other than that it seems like brent’s lost the boys. which, of course, makes you think about the teams that have brought in coaches mid-season (“easier to sack the coach than to sack 23 players”) and have done well.
but yeah. they’re pros. they should effin’ play.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
History is replete with teams that had rooms full of guys that didn’t like each other and managed just fine. It’s not optimal, but it’s mostly an excuse.
As for the coach, whatever. A lot of them wanted Keenan out, and Playfair before him. I don’t disagree that they should have been sent away, but it’s no panacea, and this season is Exhibit A.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 18, 2010 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
Misery loves company
If it makes you guys feel any better, we have it even worse.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
Did the Oil make a game of it whiel the game was on the line?
I didn’t watch but I would bet they did, the Avs are brutal. Even a decimated Oilers squad should be able to outplay that bunch, you obviously got scored on 6 times but that’s just how the dice have been falling for the unmighty Avs this season.
Be nice to have that luck at the start of the playoffs.
While getting outchanced two to one. And playing so often in their own zone, with supposed breakout rookie Duchene leading the way in futility breaking the blueline.
Yup, that part’s not luck.
Might want to vacate these premises if you’re planning on a pissing match. Especially tonight.
Dennis had Oilers getting outchanced 2:1. 25 chances for the Avs, 12 for the Oil. 0 SC on 4 PP opportunities. Anderson didn’t have to break a sweat for the second time against the Oil this year. Last time I actually went and suffered through it, although that time at least it was only 3-0.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 18, 2010 11:07 PM PST up reply actions
I see. I’m not interested in a pissing contest, we got our own concerns. But the Avs crushed us fair and square tonight, and Duchesne had a fine game. 2-1-3, passed Tavares in the rookie scoring race.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 18, 2010 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
But I guess the answer to my question above is “no the Oil did not make a game of it”.
Damn. Are the Oil really as bad as their record? They lost Hemsky but surely Horcoff could carry a Penner around and do damage.
Although I read a lot about that Quinn and his inability to line match, like adding fuel to the fire, that coach is.
No, the Oil did NOT make a game of it. They mailed it in.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 18, 2010 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
So I’ve actually been on here for the entire season, but hey, misery loves company.
The only consistent thing about this team is their inconsistency. To me, it starts from up top with Darryl and his complete lack of emotion. Sure he’s clever sometimes but at some point, you get the feeling that some of these players don;t really care and hate playing for this team (ie. Dion). But we all know nothing will happen, at least until after the olympics. And sadly, I’ll still be watching this mess.
I kind of get that feeling about Dion too. He probably hates playing hockey. All these years playing for Sutters. I kidd….
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
The Sutters look like they could suck the enjoyment out of anything. They’re soul-killers.
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 19, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
Screw Heatley.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 18, 2010 11:16 PM PST up reply actions
He was right, Bruce. A selfish jackass, to be sure, and maybe someone you’d rather not have in an organization, but a rational person can’t possibly look at the Oilers and think, “yup, they’re on the right track”.
Again, that doesn’t make him noble or honest or anything nice, but that’s not in the job requirement.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 18, 2010 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
i’m just saying that it would be nice to have an elite goalscorer. for once.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
Oh, I don’t disagree with that part at all. Like I said, being a nice guy isn’t in the job description. Whether he would have pulled the same BS with Sutter, who knows, right? I don’t think the Flames would have flown to Kelowna to kiss his ring the way Lowe and company did, but Heatley might have done the same thing anyway. I don’t think he wanted to play in a Canadian media market, to be honest. Anonymous and rich was probably appealing for a guy with his past, and he would be just that in any non-traditional U.S. market short of Atlanta.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 18, 2010 11:36 PM PST up reply actions
yep. maybe. or maybe hometown hero would’ve appealed to him. we’ll never know, i guess.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
Heatley fucked over Ottawa and Edmonton. To both force a trade and then reject it is going a little far IMO. I know it’s his right, but it’s also my right to say “Screw Heatley”.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 19, 2010 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
i’m not shy about saying it again: i honestly believe bryan murray is the villain here. the way i see it (and i could be wrong), he went public with heatley wanting a trade and he went public with the edmonton offer HOPING that dany would be guilted into accepting. i totally believe that there was a list of teams that #15 wanted and that edmonton wasn’t on it.
i believe these things because i hate murray a hellofalot more than i hate heatley.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
I think it’s less Heatly’s fault than the public believes, as well. Obviously he looked like a spoiled brat, basically, with the way the trade negotiations went, but if you’re unhappy at a job, you quit. And no offense to Oilers fans, but it’s pretty understandable to not want to be traded to a team in your current situation (especially if you’re raised Calgarian – I’ll bet he’s a closet Flames fan ;) ).
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 19, 2010 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
Like say, a Maurice Richard Trophy winner with two 50 goal seasons under his belt? Wish I could think of a Flame on the roster who fit that bill…
If Iggy could locate his net-finding GPS from a couple of years ago, then that would be awesome. Seems to be on the fritz of late.
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 19, 2010 1:48 PM PST up reply actions
there’s that one part that sortof seems parallel.
by walkinvisible on Jan 18, 2010 11:45 PM PST up reply actions
i’m not sure steinberg understands how .500 works. there is no way that we’re 8 games over .500 right now…. right ?
that’s the math i was getting. he also said that dallas was over .500 which is also totally incorrect.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 12:11 AM PST up reply actions
ahhhhh he’s throwing out the OTL. which can’t be right. they’re still losses, non ?
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 12:14 AM PST up reply actions
.500 or not .500?
I was at the game tonight and, while I’m a Sharks fan and thoroughly enjoyed the outcome, I have to admit that I hate to see any opponent play such a thoroughly disjointed game. Don’t blame this one on Kiprusoff… it was a team effort, or lack thereof.
Anyway, regarding .500 – my thoughts, if anyone cares:
In the old days, when men were always men, women were always women, and games were always 2 points each, those 2 points were always divided in some manner between 2 teams, so the average score for all teams in the league combined was exactly 1 point per game. And this was the meaning of .500.
Nowadays, we have this bizarre situation ( thanks to the powers-that-be-asinine ) where most games are worth 2 points but a few are worth 3. It’s unknown in advance how many games will be worth 3 points, so the average points per game shifts, and so does the mark for .500. If we tie the two together, the new mark for .500 is about 1.12 points/game ( source: http://nhl.jzap.com/standings ).
Therefore, any team which has averaged less than the league average 1.12 points/game is below .500. Even after tonight’s debacle ( from a Flames perspective ), currently the Flames sit at 1.16 points/game, which is a bit over .500 by these standards. Whether this is “equivalent” to +8 games over .500 or not is a matter of opinion.
( Dallas, on the other hand, at 1.08 points/game is definitely below .500. As a Sharks fan, nothing pleases me more, except perhaps Anaheim failing to make the postseason at all… :) )
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
More to the point, .500 is meaningless. A .500 team is no longer an average team on the cusp of the playoffs, it’s a bad team. “The new .500” — the league’s meadian Pts% — fluctuates somewhere around .560.
Gary Bettman’s NHL has made a mockery of the standings, the statistics, the record book, and the very integrity of the game on the ice.
Writer for The Copper & Blue and primary shareholder of Zorg Industries
"Never be ashamed of who you are" -- Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg
by Bruce McCurdy on Jan 19, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Perhaps, but at least it’s an entertaining mockery. I prefer 4on4 sudden death and a shootout for the purposes of my viewing enjoyment to the old school tie (boooooooring). Let’s be honest, as much money is put into sports, and as much as we may be into them, they are still primarily a form of entertainment, and I think the “new NHL” does a better job of providing that than dead puck hockey.
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 19, 2010 1:54 PM PST up reply actions
Just a Canucks fan coming to see how you guys are handling such a shellacking.
by Chuckles Canuckles on Jan 19, 2010 1:29 AM PST reply actions
I did not know the Flames were playing last night
and neither did the Flames apparently. 9 to 1? NINE to FREAKING ONE!? Games like that are the ones that make me double glad that:
1) I live in EST and can not stay up for weeknight games
2) I get VERY FEW Flames games
Normally those two things piss me off, but they are a blessing when the Flames go and do this. Just atrocious, and you know that nothing is going to come of this… absolutely nothing but the status quo.
This guy obviously knew what he was talking about. He doesn’t mention the Flames specifically, but he must have known what was coming…
hahahahaha i think you mean flames FANS. ;)
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
In a week, if we beat Chicago, this game will be forgotten. If we lose, the GM’s head will be called for again.
How funny is that, that the fate of our GM (in our fanbase’s eyes) apparently rests solely on an event that will be at least half determined by random chance? Instead of on something that he actually has control over (getting another forward difference maker).
Nope, not that funny I guess. “They need a shake up!”
Fuckin’ hell.
I think the fact that Calgary has won just 1 in the last 9 has something to do with it (although they probably don’t deserve that record).
They certainly do not deserve that record.
Would you agree that they played worse hockey in their first 9 games than their last 9 games? I would say they did. Didn’t hear much complaining about the first 9 games around these parts eh? Certainly we had to try and convince people that the Flames were sucking bag.
And certainly no calls for the GM’s or coach’s head despite errors made in the summer (woulda been nice to get a forward, trade Kipper is still the right move) and in the season (playing Iggy with Jokinen? Really, we told you a third of a season ago not to do that!)
It really is all about the W’s.
Well judging the first 9 games would be rash…but here it would be judging it on not only the last 9 games but also the first 9 games and everything in between. That includes the inconsistencies we seen throughout the season. They should let D.Sutt try and get a forward by year’s end and evaluate him then. Butter is spared cause even though you might have an argument he has lost the locker room for the time being, its not his fault…he inherited these personalities. But honestly if nothing improves (even after acquiring a forward) or there is another first round exit, D.Sutt has to go. I think the writing will be on the wall well before that time anyways.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
well, i’ve also been saying that the five-game winning streak we heard so much about was kindof exaggerated if you note which teams we beat.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
Well, hello one and all. I’m back after missing three complete games. Did I miss anything? Other than Reggie finally scoring?
Obviously, after seeing the score I wasn’t going to peruse the gamethread, but probably had as much fun reading these comments. Appears to be some pent-up hostility in here. I will say that I didn’t think it was a foregone conclusion they’d lose to the Sharks and I don’t think it’s obvious they’ll lose to the Hawks. I think they’re an average team with some potential for goodness and that this game is going to be looked back on as a season low.
I also don’t think there are any changes coming (whether that’s good or bad) – this team is the team and we’ll have to live with it.
Maimster, the voice of reason.
The changes I hope for are in coaching, specifically, playing Iginla with Langkow (and Bourque if he can manage it). Sutter tried it, the Flames played well and won 5 games in a row, then he goes back to the chaos of Jokinen at the first loss.
Which worked when Iginla was dominating (anything works when Iginla is dominating) but now both Jokinen (who sucks) and Conroy (who’s still on the good side of his chances, but is a lesser player than Langkow) couldn’t handle the job.
Just perplexing how this coach makes decisions.
Yeah, one of the Flames best stretched of the season came when Sutter gave Langkow to Iginla and had Bourque babysitting Jokinen. I have no idea why he abandoned that strategy so quickly. I think what we’ve seen in recent days with Conroy and Glencross and Nystrom and Lundmark bouncing around the top 6 is the bench boss is out of ideas.
He should make things simpler for himself and play the best players together against other team’s best players. I think you mentioned that in the GT last night.
As I said then, though…maybe he just doesn’t know who that is at this point?
I remember why, it was the Columbus game. We had a couple breakdowns from the defence (key here, it wasn’t the forwards that night) and you characterized the game (fairly I think) as a bad hockey game. As in it was boring.
That night I found out Brent Sutter was rich. How else could he afford to smoke such good shit? Damn he was ripping into the team, it couldn’t have been more obvious to me that the Flames dominated the Blue Jackets.
Incidentally if someone wants to make an argument that Sutter lost the room they should really point to a game like that one where the coach’s words were completely disconnected from reality.
He should make things simpler for himself and play the best players together against other team’s best players. I think you mentioned that in the GT last night.
I mentioned it in the 10 game review as well, to demote Jokinen to a soft minute line. It was clear as day at that point that Jokinen as Iginla’s centre was not workable unless Iginla stepped up his game (which he is still capable of doing apparently).
well, the “demote Jokinen” line of thought has been evident here since he arrived. It was obvious last year when Keenan tried it and it was painfully obvious after the first 30 games this season.
Stuff like this often makes me wonder about the internal pressures coaches and players face in the NHL. There must be something in place that skews perceptions that is outside our humble observation. Hierarchy amongst the players? Does reputation of a guy matter as much as his actual performance?
I suspect that with Jokinen, what’s at play is likely a mix of past performance, albeit inaccurately assessed, contract status and physical tools. I have no doubt if we were to watch these guys practice every day, Olli Jokinen would be a player that would stand out. Size, decent speed, hard shot, it all seems to be there, right? Unfortunately, that always leads us back to that Billy Beane quote about selling jeans.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 19, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
I’d bet he’s smoother in that area as well. Practice never, ever replicates a game, so he likely has the time and space to make good plays.
Sort of like playing in the Southeast Division after the lockout, come to think of it.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 19, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
you’re right. the player’s rep goes a long way. there are a lot of factors at play with the Joker. you demote him, you are dealing with flack from whatever owner likes him, calls from his agent, etc but worst of all some particular backlash from Finland Hockey. you just don’t want to demote the guy when he’s 20 days away from being an important part of his national team. especially when you have other Finns on your team and in your system. i know it sounds ridiculous but it’s an important outside pressure that comes into play this season. the Joker playing bad in Vancouver is Finland’s problem…you don’t want it to be yours because of some spin that you benched him.
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
Iginla’s rep, at least, was well earned.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 19, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
I laugh at “the voice of reason”…or at least, my wife laughs!
By changes, I meant to the roster. Backlund is the only forward that could impact this roster in the way it needs to be impacted (ie. top 6) and he isn’t good enough yet. We all know they are light on forwards that are near ready, and them calling Backlund up would look like a panic move (because it is one). I also don’t see a trade now – I would have seen it two weeks ago, ironically, but now I think the Sutters are going to swim with this group.
Now, as for lineup changes, you are completely correct. I asked the question after the 5-game winning streak why everyone here was convinced Brent had seen the light vis a vis Lanks with Iggy. He has shown me, clearly, that a) there is no discernable logic to his lineup decisions and b) coaching in the NHL may have less of an effect than I thought – more in line with a manager in baseball than a coaching staff (hello, Norv!) in football.
Or, do I have that backwards? This team doesn’t look much different than last years team, which is why I wrote coaching has little effect. But… I thought some of the earlier (ie. November) approach of forwards supporting back farther and less reliance on the boards was working and was new, and thus felt this was a place Sutter deserved credit. Now, they’re back to the system of banging it along the boards and fighting battles they only win 50% of the time. Sure, the puck stays away from the center when they win possession, but often ends there when they lose possession which is far too often. So, why this change? Coaching? Players who aren’t capable of better? Does coaching have a large effect and this team (with this captain) largely uncoachable?
Anyway, back to my main point. I think this team has talented enough players not to lose 9-1. This team is good enough to win – they’ve shown that enough this year, and to my eye they’ve shown it more often than not. This game won’t change my mind, and I’m looking forward to Thursday.
The coaching question is an excellent one. I’m on the “probably doesn’t have much effect side” at this point, although the Pens fortunes dramatically improved after Bylsma took over last year. Jacques Lemaire is a guy who always seemingly gets good special teams performances out of his clubs no matter the personnel.
It may be an issue where effects only really show up at the extremes. Really lousy coaches and really great coaches impact performance whereas a large middle class of bench bosses are basically cancel each other out.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 19, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
Well said maimster, especially that last paragraph. I’ll add some of my thoughts.
A 9-1 score isn’t a regularly reasonable expectation for even the worst team in the league, it might not even be a regularly reasonable expectation for the worst team in history.
They got outchanced by a ton last night. It has happened before though, I recall that Detroit game in the Joe (3-0, Kipper shutout) that I didn’t catch but the shot clock was absurd and apparently Kipper was the only guy who showed up. It’s not good, but we’re rightly questioning why they didn’t show up for the SJ game, but the score’s making nearly everyone go batshit crazy.
So in full agreement with you there, still liking our chances for Thursday, particularly with two days rest and home ice advantage.
On the coaching stuff: I think the difference between two random coaches probably doesn’t shake out to much. For all we know a Babcock type would come in and load the PVP up properly but might give too many secondary tough minutes to the third liners.
I still badly want this coach to start simple with how he matches up our players against theirs. There’s two crucial issues with the team as-is (losing the top line battle, and the PP) and although a personnel fix would be most effective, Brent Sutter is not helping.
if i remember correctly, the flames lost 7-1 to chicago the last time the two teams met at the dome.
ie: home ice is not much of an advantage.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
WI:
You have to, have to, have to get over your obsession with the scoreboard, it’s not moving the discussion forward at all. 7-1 was not an accurate reflection of that game nor is it a reasonable expectation of the score of any game in which Calgary outplays its opposition at even strength.
I know these blowouts are embarrassing but let’s get back to to reality here. The Flames will probably be given even odds by the bookies, which is far from “a blowout on Thursday”.
by R O on Jan 19, 2010 1:41 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
i suppose i could have blockquoted it but the reason i mentioned the 7-1 chicago game was in response to your comment:
still liking our chances for Thursday, particularly with two days rest and home ice advantage.
in my opinion (and i fully respect that it is only my OPINION), in flamesville the score is often an accurate reflection of things: in the 7-1 loss to chicago, from my memory, was in NO WAY one of those games where calgary outplayed its opponent and it was AT HOME and with, well, one day of rest. i only caught snippets (i was away and at work) but i do remember very vividly my parents calling me after the second period to tell me they were disgusted with the “casualness” and leaving the ’dome. similar disgust was felt last night.
i hadn’t mentioned the avs game or the pens game where calgary’s play clearly deserved a better outcome than they received, or the wins against lesser teams that resulted in a W streak.
in saying that, i’m sure the team is aware their livelihood is at stake and will bring their A game on thursday.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
That game was a tough one. The Flames were in it until they took a couple of penalties. The PK was indeed dreadful and the hawks started to run away with things. At ES, the teams were fairly evenly matched, but the Flames special teams absolutely killed them that night.
bad penalties are a right of passage here in flamesville. remember when conroy and sarich used to take the classic baddies all the time ? now it’s bourque and jokinen. unless you’re looking to blame the refs, then 7-1 = bad penalties = bad game.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
(kindof like hot opposition goalie = no goals = bad game. unfortunate but somehow true)
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions
I think the average team assessment is fair. In fact, that’s where the underlying numbers have been pointing most of the year.
Is it acceptable to be an average team who spends to the cap, however?
Is it acceptable to be an average team who spends to the cap, however?
I think so. I had a quick look at nhlnumbers the other day and it appears that most teams spend to the cap.
The bottom feeders are different and that’s where a team like Edmonton should really be looking at management, just for the sheer gross financial impact of paying to the max for losses.
I agree, I think almost all teams are close to the cap. The problem is the Flames don’t have the younger top quality players who are worth much more than their salary.
Dawes is alright, but I wouldn’t put him in that category. And unless Bourque takes a hometown discount this year (hopefully he’s not too disgusted with the Flames) he’ll either be gone or making what he’s worth very soon.
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 19, 2010 1:59 PM PST up reply actions
i would definitely put him, at 850K, in the category of “top quality player worth more than his salary”
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, he probably fits my literal description, but I was thinking more of 50-60 point young guy on early contract, and I don’t think that’s Dawes either.
I was trying to say that the Flames are a pretty well slotted salary cap team, with the only glaring (and I mean glaring) errors being Joker on one end and probably Bourque/Gio on the other. Maybe Dawes fits there too, if I think about it.
Worht more than his salary? Yes. Top quality? That sounds subjective, but not in this reporter’s opinion. On a well-designed team he’s a marginal second liner/good third liner.
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 20, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
…..until they get blown out by chicago.
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
Everyone wants a trade.
Trade 12, trade 28, trade 3, trade 21.
Thats not so easy with a cap, the numbers have to fit. Secondly, who are you going to trade any one of those guys for a player that will help the team? The only teams that will be willing to trade a player of impact are teams that seem out of the playoffs, 4 or 5 teams at this point. Doest seem like much to choose from with those teams. Anaheim or CBus may be options but are they willing to give up so soon? I just dont think its as easy as having Sutter tell the rest of the NHL he will trade and have the rest of the league come running to help. What I would really like to see this team get is a sandpaper player, Prust just doesnt seem to make other teams mad.
Steve Ott or a Ruutuu would be perfect.
by DarrenZ on Jan 19, 2010 9:19 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
My thoughts exactly. You always need a shit disturber who isn’t totally lost with the puck. Say, what’s Ville Nieminen up to these days?
Avery. I’d love to see him playing with Phaneuf.
by SmellOfVictory on Jan 19, 2010 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, Prust isn’t half bad this year. He’s a better player than McG and probably Sjostrom as well.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 19, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
The only good flame I have saw in the last 24hrs was the one that went right in front of my house on it’s way to Vancouver.
I want my Scoring please.
has anybody heard anything about glencross’s skates ? a buddy of mine made mention of it but never followed it up… i thought he was talking about TLP’s awesome post, at first, but i think it was actually more than that…..
Reading some of Eklunds rumors (Yeah right)
He actually may have some logical stuff here
Jeff Halpern to the Flames?
Obviously the Alexei Ponikarovsky to the Flames
Here’s one that made me laugh a little
Phaneuf. One source tells me the Boston Bruins are preparing a major offer for Dion.
Who’s his source the little guy in his brain telling him that oh this player would look good in that jersey lets make a rumor.
I want my Scoring please.
His source is fantastical imagination and an unscrupulous attitude towards gathering traffic for his site.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 19, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
Apropos of not much, I see Client Petr Sykora is on waivers. I don’t see him in Cowtown, but I wonder if he has anything left at all for any team to go after him.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 19, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
They have plenty of NHL forwards. They’re almost all marginal NHLers, but still ;-)
The Flames wouldn’t ever think of this, would they:
Bourque-Langkow-Iginla
Glencross-Conroy-Moss
Sykora-Jokinen-Dawes
Nystrom-Boyd-Prust
…and play them in about that order of comp? As I said, I doubt it, but I’m not sure Sjostrom rates a roster spot at this point. It might be a cheap gamble.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 19, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
Amonte was even worse, if that’s possible. More actual money, in a time where the cap was lower.
by Robert Cleave on Jan 19, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah. Amonte was a pretty big blunder, although it seemed like an okay gamble at the time.
by Kent Wilson on Jan 19, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
Good news from the Fantasy front on ESPN I can finally drop Olli Jokinen. Espn has him as one of the special players that couldn’t be dropped.
Thank Heaven
I want my Scoring please.
why couldn’t he be dropped ?
maybe sutter’s going by that feed also…. ?
by walkinvisible on Jan 19, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Players drafted in the first 2 rounds on espn fantasy cannot be dropped in my league. Haha I really hope that’s just for me, I’d hate to have seen someone draft jokinen in the 1st or 2nd round
by Rod Blogojevich on Jan 19, 2010 1:36 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Funny, in yahoo I picked a Sedin in the 2nd round (don’t ask which one!) and he’s my only “no-drop” player, not Semin who I picked in the first.
yeah that’s not the case in Yahoo…i have the Joker in The Bonfire…he isn’t that bad for that league…definitely not worth dropping…
Spreading that Calgary Flames, Montreal Expos, The U, and Orlando Magic love.
I’m in an ESPN Keeper and with Mikko Koivu as a Free Agent, Olli was the worst Center I have.
Here’s a list of ESPN’s Undroppable players (It changes every so often)
CENTER
Jeff Carter, Phi
Sidney Crosby, Pit
Pavel Datsyuk, Det
Ryan Getzlaf, Ana
Evgeni Malkin, Pit
Patrick Marleau, SJ
Eric Staal, Car
LEFT WING
Dany Heatley, SJ
Ilya Kovalchuk, Atl
Rick Nash, Cls
Alex Ovechkin, Was
Zach Parise, NJ
Henrik Zetterberg, Det
RIGHT WING
Marian Gaborik, NYR
Jarome Iginla, Cgy
Bobby Ryan, Ana
DEFENSE
Zdeno Chara, Bos
Mike Green, Was
GOALIES
Martin Brodeur, NJ
Ilya Bryzgalov, Pho
Miikka Kiprusoff, Cgy
Ryan Miller, Buf
I want my Scoring please.
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