Regehr, Phanuef, Bouwmeester Fail to Make Canadian Olympic Team
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 9:42 AM PST
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PrintWith the announcement of Canada's Olympic Team today, Flames fans discovered that none of their top 3 defenders will be making the trip to Vancouver. In their stead will be Drew Doughty, Shea Weber, Duncan Keith, Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, Brent Seabrook, *edit to add* Dan Boyle
Personally I'm not terrible surprised about the exclusions of Regehr and Phaneuf. I am, however, astonished Bouwmeester was left off the team in favor of Doughty, Seabrook and (especially) Boyle.
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i’ve been pro-boyle forever. i’m actually stoked by the blueline, albeit shocked that doughty drew in over jaybouw.
Meh. Boyle is a fun guy to watch, but he isn’t anywhere near one of the best all-around Canadian defensemen. He isn’t even the best defenseman on his team. Boyle ahead of Bouwmeester is fairly ridiculous in my mind.
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
yeah but it’s boyle ahead of green, technically. it’s doughty ahead of bouwmeester.
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
actually --thinking about this now, doughty is kindof an amalgamation of green AND jaybouw, and perhaps therefore fills both of those roles if need be. i’m starting to think stevie Y didn’t pick this team this morning.
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
I think only offensively he is. Bouwmeesters biggest asset is that he takes away time and space so effectively, because he skates so well (like a Coffey or Neidermeyer) and is big – meaning he has long reach, closes on the puck quickly, and I’ve hardly see him lose position on the boards. There is a reason why Chara is so valuable, and it’s these reasons…only Chara can’t skate as well. It’s the same with Gio as with other small defenders. Gio has his assests, but he doesn’t have this.
i wonder if gio made the longlist. ;)
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
Honestly, I don’t see hugely different skillsets between Gio and Boyle. I think Gio is massively underrated, that being said, I can only assume I am not seeing enough of Boyle, cause when I have seen him, I haven’t understood what all the fuss is about. I really believe Boyle is as overrated, or more so, than Phaneuf and has just stacked up points playing with St.Louis, Lecavalier, Thorton and Marleau. I don’t remember anyone giving much care to Boyle in Florida, and not until about his 5th or 6th years in Tampa.
in tampa where he was a #1 PP guy ? and won a cup ?
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
You got it right on the “overrated” part … as did KW in suggesting “he plays against nobodies and gets a bunch or PP time”. Granted – you cannot take away his Cup in ’04.
He gets away with his gambles because their system is designed to cover for him. Interesting comparison to GIo.
by Calgarian in SJ on Dec 30, 2009 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
Related: guess who leads Flames defensemen in ES scoring efficicency this year?
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
1. if you guys are honestly comparing gio and boyle, i think that’s a pretty sweet pat-on-the-back for my boy.
2. if your beef with boyle is that he “gets away with his gambles because their system is designed to cover for him” then —my guess is— that would be exactly the same on an all-star type team canada squad.
i dunno. i was also totally and utterly shocked by the omission of bouwmeester but i would have been just as happy with him on the team, with hamhuis, with regehr, or with bieksa.
hahaha just kidding on bieksa. ;)
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
J-Bo
I am a little surprised that Doughty got the nod over J-Bo. I think it might be the case that he played his way off the team and with Yzerman looking for good chemistry a dman without personality like Bouw is easy to discount. Wrong choice IMO – Drew would be better waiting until 2014. Other than that I had the goalies and forwards exactly except St. Louis over Bergeron.
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I’m with you in that I’m not surprised about the omission of Phaneuf. Regehr, I thought had the small ice surface going for him, but he is somewhat one-dimensional. However, Bouwmeester being left of the team? That I cannot understand. There is no way Dan Boyle should be included over Bouwmeester, and nevermind asking what Seabrook brings that Jbo doesn’t. Doughty….he’s a gamble..but he is playing very well right now.
Dan Boyle is a second tier/comp defenseman, it’s time sharks fans realize with him, what Flames fans know about Phaneuf.
On a related note, I think Stevie Y just did the Calgary Flames a little favour. There is no way those three don’t take this personally and show the NHL what they think about it. Is Hemsky really not playing on Thursday? Dammit.
Plus we won’t have to worry about them being tired/injured.
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
It’s true. I am a little ticked off about this though…which is stupid. It just goes to show what reputation/hype can result in. The only two players from the Flames that deserve to be playing at the next level are JBo and Kipper. RBQ most nights looks better than Iggy. Now I’m not saying Iggy doesn’t deserve to be on this team, but he sure hasn’t played his way on to it over the last two years, it’s from years prior.
I get the Seabrook pick for comfort reasons, and the Doughty pick over his natural competition (Mike Green) isn’t terrible. As for Dan Boyle, I made the same point as Lawrence both here and at Willis’ place in the last couple of days. I don’t really get the love, and with Niedermayer and Doughty on the squad, they likely have enough gamblers. I’m not completely feeling it with Staal either, because he didn’t look that great even before he was hurt. To be honest, he, like Iggy, is a reputation pick to some degree.
This is what I see as well. Not only that, but defensively…which is what defenseman are first expected to excel at, this group looks weaker and smaller to me.
Ok, sure, you’ve got Pronger and Weber, and maybe Seabrook (who I don’t see as a bruiser) but after that…Doughty, Boyle, Neidermeyer, Keith, who average about 6’0 and 196. I think with the NHL size ice, a physical game is going to be even more advantageous than on the olympic ice-surface.
This has always been Canada’s most obvious strength IMO, depth and physical play. It seems like we are trying to get the defense to be more ‘euro’ with smaller, skating, scoring defenders, which is fine, but I think missing the other is not good. Pronger is old and slow. We are not going to out-skill the European teams, we never have, and that’s not going to change this year. The small ice lends itself to a cycle-game, and pyhsical in the corners. I like this line-up more for olympic ice.
Anyway, I gotta get to work before I start sounding like Don Cherry.
Patrice Bergeron on the team has me scratching my head. Especially over a guy like St. Louis.
His underlying stats are surprisingly solid, actually, but, frankly a better “no name” pick would have been Rene Bourque who has faced equally tough assignments the last 2 years and outscored Bergeron at ES.
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Isn’t St.Louis from Laval? That’s across the bridge from Montreal. I don’t think you can get more French-Canadian than the name St.Louis
Yeah, I was aware of that. ;) It was more a response to the general question of “Why Bergeron?” than “why Bergeron over St. Louis?”
it’s making sense now. bergeron = faceoff specialist.
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
JB
Would sure like to hear some of Yzerman’s reasoning behind some of the choices; like many I’m stunned by the Bouwmeester omission.
Boyle a pretty decent D for the overrated media darlings here in SJ … but you put what he brings up against JB??? … I’ll take the taller player with the long reach, who covers the entire ice by way of incredible skating and pure hockey smarts … over the miniature riverboat gambler.
I guess I’m a homer … but Calgary gets no respect around the league. What’s new.
If Canada doesn’t win gold … Steve will be CRUCIFIED for many of these choices we are discussing right now.
I just hope Yzerman did Calgary a favor.
by Calgarian in SJ on Dec 30, 2009 10:53 AM PST reply actions
When it comes down to it, though, Scott Niedermayer is probably the worst defenseman on the team at this point in his career. He’s having a fairly abysmal season and if he didn’t have the resume he does, he wouldn’t have even been considered.
I’ve seen a lot of Boyle hate from some fairly good bloggers out there (yourself, Robert & Willis to name a few). I didn’t realize he stacked up so poorly. Didn’t John Tortarella swear by him? Did he play tough minutes in Tampa prior to San Jose?
It’s not hate as much as it is a realization that he’s a second pairing guy. He plays against nobodies and gets a bunch of PP time. He’s fairly marginal defensively speaking. Going with Boyle over, say, Mike Green (who plays similar circumstances but scores even more frequently) or over Bouwmeester (who plays much tougher competition way more often) doesn’t make a lot of sense.
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions
You are correct – he absolutely played tough minutes in TB. 2004 finals comes to mind.
Watched him closely at Sharks training camp this year and he is the real deal. Publiclly made himself personally accountable to the local Sharks fans (which is rare in these parts).
I’m no hater …. my comment was that beside Bouwmeester and what they both bring – for the situation they are going into …. I don’t understand the choice.
by Calgarian in SJ on Dec 30, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t dislike Boyle, myself. I think he’s a pretty good player. he just isn’t better than the guys he was picked ahead of, for my money.
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
so you would take doughty over boyle, then ? because THAT’s where the question mark lies, in my opinion.
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
I figured Bouwmeester would be in for Doughty. Tad disappointed, although the roster is likely to be altered by injury before February. That’s not a wish or hope of mine, just a probability. Perhaps Jay-Bo draws in yet.
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by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions
How Bouwmeester gets left off in favour of Seabrook, Boyle, Doughty and Niedermayer is beyond me. That was easily Yzerman’s worst decision on this team.
Regehr didn’t deserve to be there, and everyone other than Niedermayer had a stronger argument than Phaneuf, and Doughty an equivalent case, imo.
for my money, doughty is better than dion and i gotta say that regehr’s had a tough year (which may or may not be dion-related). seabrook and keith are a no-brainer. niedermeyer’s had a terrible year but hey, he’s scott niedermeyer. i hate pronger but he’s a good blueliner if he can keep his elbows down, and shea weber is underrated just like jaybouw. i figure if there’s an injury to any of these guys other than boyle, jaybouw will get the nod. if boyle goes down, it’s mike green.
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
Gotta wonder if this will be a wake-up call for Phaneuf …. go in to the second half and play with something to prove.
Or not.
by Calgarian in SJ on Dec 30, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
The pessimist in me says: Phaneuf has had something to prove after his rookie campaign and has only gotten worse (although, he looks marginally better this year, cause last year he was terrible).
The optimist in me says: If Boyle could play five years without anyone even knowing his name and now be an all-star and a team canada defender, maybe Phaneuf has a long way to go to hit his ceiling, and will mature and get their in the next few years. Wouldn’t that be an awesome evolution. I’m as hard on Dion as anyone, and sometimes even I forget he is only 24. He should have 8-10 years of his best hockey ahead of him.
When Dan Boyle was 24 he was in his 3rd NHL season, had two previous seasons prior… a total of 35 games and 11 points, and a minus 2.
Actually, as much as I curse Dion…and often inappropriately use the phrase ‘hate’ in front of his name when he screws up, you may be surprised to find me in total opposition of the ‘trade Dion’ talk.
Phaneuf is a stone’s throw from a ‘failed project’ right now, but he is also the same distance from being a dominant NHL defenseman when he is 26 or 27. If the Flames trade Dion in the next 2 years, you can put me in the ‘very disappointed’ column, and I’ll stick with that until he’s making the same mistakes at 27.
The arguements for trading Phaneuf also stem from the team’s make-up: they’re overly cap heavy blueline, their lack of offensive depth and the fact that Dion would probably garner the best return.
Even if everything breaks right and Phaneuf turns into a true $6.5M defender, the Flames still have too much money invested in their blueline and lackluster top 6 forward depth going forward.
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Personally, I think the arguments for trading Phaneuf stem from an irrational hatred of the man by a certain segment of the fans. A lot of the hate he is getting this year is a carryover from last season’s disappointment, because he has been significantly better this season. Not where he should be, mind you, but certainly not worthy of the shit and abuse he gets at CP and HF (though the HF forums are just about the last place on earth you would ever see fair commentary surrounding a Flames player).
Certainly what you say is true. I also think that having Phaneuf, Regehr and JBo is a pro, not a con.
I also believe that recognizing this you have to be smart and strategic with the others. We’re 4th or 5th in spending on ‘d’ and probably the best off of those teams. Losing the Sarich contract, as an example, would put us at about 10th in the league. We’re also carrying 8 defenders, … I think there are ways to optimize spending without losing a future asset. I’d rather deal players who are playing at their ceiling, or worse, than deal the future away. Especially since the future in Calgary ain’t bright.
I would trade Jokinen, Langkow, Sarich, Pardy, Boyd, Johnson, Kronwall, Sjostrom, and dump McG before I would trade Phaneuf. That’s about 17 million worth of re-investment dollars without giving up on the future, excluding Boyd and Pardy, who don’t strike me as irreplaceable talent right now, and I do like Boyd and Pardy, and half of those players on the list.
Kronwall, Sjostrom, McG, Johnson, Pardy can’t be dealt for anything outside of cap space. And their dollars wouldn’t be replaced by anyone of note either. Those are marginal assets and they would be nominal moves. They wouldn’t solve any top 6 problems and it wouldn’t really move money from the back-end to the front end.
Langkow can’t be dealt from this team as it’s constructed currently and I would argue he’s probably more valuable to Calgary than Phaneuf is given his dollars to contribution ratio and the fact that he’s – by far – the best center on the team. If you move Langkow, he has to be replaced in kind. It’s a lateral move at best.
I would trade Jokinen in a heart beat, but the chances of winning that trade are minimal given his trade value. The only thing you get out of that is cap space, probably. And, again, you aren’t diverting funds from the back-end to the front-end, which is something I think has to be done eventually with Calgary. He’s gone in the summer anyways.
I don’t see the point of trading Boyd, who makes league minimum and is 23 years old. You wouldn’t get anything of note in return and players at the same pay scale are poor bets to outperform him.
The Flames as an organization will have to make a real decision very soon when it comes to their cap heavy back-end – either re-invest some of the dollars into legit top 6 forwards (be it by trading Bouwmeester, Regehr, Sarich or Phaneuf) or, I guess, hope they can find some really, really good deals at forward in the free agent pool next year.
by Kent Wilson on Dec 30, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Your suggestion that Langkow is “by far – the best center on the team” … speaks volumes as to the Flames’ current woes.
by Calgarian in SJ on Dec 30, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed. I see Langkow as the best centre by about 700k dollars. He’s terrible in the face-off circle, has less points, takes less shots and seems to be dragged down by Iggy as much as Jokinen (granted it was one game)
Sure, Langkow is more stable/reliable than Joker, but he’s shooting at an unsustainable rate and has played all season with Bourque. The gap between Joker and Lanks ain’t that big, and Joker isn’t playing very well at all, so that says something about Langkow.
personally, i see the “trade phaneuf” talk as valid because if I know he’s terrible, and YOU know he’s terrible, then it’s just a matter of time before bryan murray figures out that he’s terrible (if you catch my meaning). trade while value is high which it MUST still be for dion, or there wouldn’t have been such backlash this afternoon when he was left off the olympic team.
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
I wager you’d miss him fairly shortly after he left. He may be overrated and playing at lower level than what’s expected at his pay grade, but for the mistakes he makes and the “lazy play” everyone’s talking about, he still plays like one of our top 4 D-men on a regular basis, and he’s got his little flashes of brilliance that make him more valuable than people give him credit for. I don’t know why the talk isn’t of trading Sarich instead of Phaneuf – he’s basically a less-effective Regehr, and I’d personally rather have someone who acts like a fourth forward on occasion than another boring defensive D-man who’s old and busted. At the very least, you would miss Phaneuf’s slapshot (excluding his recent streak of shooting directly into the nearest opposing player rather than the net).
by SmellOfVictory on Dec 30, 2009 5:03 PM PST up reply actions
i would miss the odd time that phaneuf’s slapshot hit the net, yes. i would not miss the redundant shot from the blueline that dion takes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME he receives a pass there on a powerplay. i would also not miss him lining up the big hits but avoiding further physical contact at every turn, often leaving him standing in front of the net taking neither the puck nor the man while the opposition bangs around and scores. oh, and i wouldn’t miss the ill-advised joining of the rush (which, admittedly, doesn’t happen very often anymore), nor would i miss the caveman-style interview with any journalist other than cabbie. and i CERTAINLY wouldn’t miss watching the puck bounce over his stick at the blueline, or the lack of urgency (some might call laziness or indifference) to chasing down pucks of any sort. ohyeah, and i wouldn’t miss his salary if it was off the books…..
for 3 million dollars less, i think i’d keep sarich at this point (providing that there was a good return on phaneuf, of course…. i might complain but he’s certainly not useless…..).
by walkinvisible on Dec 30, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
I wish we could just ask Chicago for Keith and Seabrook in exchange for Phaneuf and Sarich.
by SmellOfVictory on Dec 30, 2009 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
Again, I don’t disagree with what you say, I just think that it’s confusing the problems at hand. The problem is not that we are not making use of the talent we are paying for on the back-end as much as it is, we are not getting full value out of the highest paid forwards.
Look, we could lose ~2-4 million from the defensive payroll in a heartbeat, depending on how aggressive Sutter wants to be with it, and what Sutter weighs as fair return. It could go from losing Sarich and the 8th d-man, to re-invest in the forwards, or replacing Sarich with a 1.6-1.8 million defender, if it is seen as needed.
That would free up 3-5 million (with our current cap space) for a forward. Sure it’s unfortunate that our big money forwards aren’t playing well right now, but, Sutter cannot look into a crystal ball and see the fact that Iggy was going to suck, Jokinen was going to be a mis-match, and Langkow was going to be a poor numbers contributor. So these decisions have some permanence…and in the off-season, Joker, Sarich and extras should be dealt with.
Agree.
It’s all about value … on what they are paid “for”.
by Calgarian in SJ on Dec 30, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
I do not have Phaneuf hate in any way; however, I see him as the symptom for everything that ails this team. As constituted, the Flames have to outwork their opponents to win – that sounds intutitive or obvious, but it’s not, really. The Flames are not hugely talented and at least three of their top-6 forwards are really in the range of 6-9 on top teams. But while that large middle class is a detriment if they aren’t outworking the opponent (because they don’t generate anything offensively) it is a benefit if they are outworking the opponent because suddenly they’re a deeper team who can neutralize a good team’s top players. It’s just the way they’re put together, they can’t half-ass anything.
Well, Phaneuf is the king of half-ass. I’ve read so many things saying that he’s much better than last year. Is that really the case? Watch a couple of games and tell me how many board battles he wins. How many times he’s the first man to the puck when it goes into the defensive end. How many long opposition puck possessions there are in the Flames end when he’s on the ice. Name any Flame defenseman who’s looked decent playing with him. My god, he’s making Reggie look like replacement value – Reggie looks lost trying to figure out what Phaneuf is doing. He’s like Bertuzzi, he’d be hell to play with.
And, honestly (and I’m not saying this because of the rumors du jour) I don’t think he’s well liked on the team. Add in that he’s a lousy PP quarterback…
Look, I understand he’s an amazing talent and there are games when I watch him and think they’d be crazy to consider trading him. But the package is a disappointment, and I don’t think his overall effort will ever improve. Maybe a trade will shock him more than anything else has and he’d become great; however, if the value was reasonable, I’d do it in a second. This team has been frustrating, and a disappointment, and seemingly less than the value of its parts for four years now, and I think all that describes Phaneuf to a tee.
I feel like I only show up to defend Phaneuf
I think he’s a convenient target, but trading him is a bad idea. Never trade a player when his value is down and Phaneuf seems to be at his lowest value as people have realized that he wasn’t very good last season.
and I understand why he’s an easy player to pick on, other than salary. He’s a star player and advanced metrics demonstrated last year that he wasn’t producing. So criticizing Phaneuf became a way to show off the metric: “See how this guy is overrated because of this evaluation tool.”
But something funny happened. Now, the numbers show that Phaneuf is playing well and the “statistical community” still hasn’t changed their tune. Check out the Corsi page at Behind the Net.
Phaneuf has 2.5 REL Corsi/60. Bouwmeester’s is -12.9. Well, it must be the competition? Well, Phaneuf’s competition rates 0.035 and Bouwmeester’s at 0.016. Then it’s the linemates. Nope. Phaneuf’s teammates grade at -0.209 and Bouwmeester’s at 0.047.
It’s like we have this great statistical toolkit, but whenever we find a tool that says Phaneuf is doing well, we ignore that measurement and go back to the “he looks like he isn’t playing well.” Isn’t that why we have these tools? To see if we can trust our lyin’ eyes?
Perhaps Phaneuf’s play has rebounded, and there is lots of room for improvement, but we haven’t caught onto it yet. If nothing else, I find him to be the most fascinating player on the team, just for this debate.
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I’m a big fan of taking the numbers and what I think I see and mashing it all up in my brain, and then see what comes out. (Which is probably mostly influenced by my personal biases, but whatever!). I have never criticized him in the past simply because the advanced metrics told me to. Also, I think his value is up now compared to the end of last year – not what it was at it’s peak (like when he signed the huge contract!) but better than it has been.
I stand by my questions though, and mostly the big question – who on the Flames has ever looked good playing with him. To me, that’s as damning as anything.
I do agree with you, though, he’s definitely the one player I think most about, for good and for bad.
I couldn’t agree more.
As you – I’m not a Dion hater. But I’m tuned in to the “King of Half-Assed” statement. And I have a confidential source on the inside who confirms the cancer he is in the dressing room – and how tough of an interview he is.
My ONE question:
I will agree he is young … he has talent … and he has many years ahead of him. Is he “teachable?” Brent thinks so.
But … DOES HE MAKE ANYBODY AROUND HIM BETTER? As you posted … Regehr “looks lost trying to figure out what Phaneuf is doing”. And I liked the way the Flames played AFTER Dion got the game misconduct ….
by Calgarian in SJ on Dec 31, 2009 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
I think Olli Jokinen said it best even though you can’t really make it out most of the time.
As the Flames played crappy. Bouwmeester’s play dwindled and that’s why he was left off but I’m still outrageously pissed that he was passed over by Drew Doughty who I’m sure will do a fine job even as the 7th Defensemen.
But lots of time left and I’m sure if anything happens to any of the D-Men J-Bo is the first alternate.
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