By definition, you can only have one #1 defenseman. You can only have one featured shooting threat on the PP. Most importantly, you can't pay elite wages for depth...
When Darryl Sutter signed Jay Bouwmeester on June 30 to a five-year, $33.4M deal with a NTC, he made the decision that JB would be heading up the blueline for the next 5 years. He can't afford to pay Dion Phaneuf to play the "Jay Bouwmeester" role, because he now has Jay Bouwmeester filling that role.
Matt makes a case for trading Phaneuf. Can't say I disagree.
9 months ago
Kent Wilson
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I don’t see how one million dollars is going to help us. We’re tits deep in depth. There is no roster spot free for another player without trading someone. By this I mean…a forward for a forward and a d-man for a d-man. D for forward doesn’t work. We already have a guy (albeit a thug sitting out…two if you count Lundmark, three Jaffray) same deal on D.
I’m all for having more money in the bank and a better team, but that mean getting rid of an over-priced player for a cheap AND better player. Those guys aren’t being given away you know.
Having more money is always nice, but we don’t need a cheaper Jokinen, we need a better Jokinen, we don’t need a cheaper Phaneuf, we need a better Phaneuf. etc.etc.
The Flames are not a money-saving franchise. The are a talent buying franchise. They are just buying some better value talent and some worse value. Unless we can trade Phaneuf for a better offensive defenseman…then we shouldn’t trade him. We can shed money elsewhere.
I think Darryl Sutter needs to shop Phaneuf for an elite young forward. There might be a few good reasons, but the important one is, It’s what’s best for the team.
…Was Matt’s conclusion.
I know this and understand this, and I’m saying I disagree. By shopping Phaneuf for an elite young forward (which sounds awfully easy) our defense gets worse AND our forwards get….??? what? Better? Surely? Like when we got Joker? AND One gets bumped out of the line-up? Dawes? Boyd? GlenX? Who?
This is my point. We need Dawes, Boyd, GlenX, Phaneuf unless we can convince someone to take Jokinen for X or Phaneuf for Green or other-like, then saying trade Phaneuf for X because we ’can’t afford to pay him’ JBo money is silly.
We don’t have an offensive defenseman…we have Cory Sarich.
We don’t have an elite young forward…we have Olli Jokinen.
I’m not a fan of trading an asset for a potential asset in a different department.
I’m a fan of getting rid of crap for a potential asset, which is going to be very hard to do, and if we can shed some dollars while doing it …all the better.
We also know that if Sutter has money he will spend it, so it’ll be used up somewhere. What Sutter can afford is 56million dollars and dammit, wise or not, he’ll spend it all.
I guess another way of looking at it is like this:
Sutter already did this logic
“I have an elite young LW, but I need an Elite young centre”
So he got Joker instead of Cammy (essentially) and saved a little money.
and Joker turned out to be not very elite, and he’s not that young either. Also, now we have too many centres (5) and not very much going on the left side. (glenX top line, dawes #2) So…we got worse AND worse…but a little cheaper*
And we had to make room by moving Lombo.
*This assumes (probably unfairly,) that Cammy would earn the same money here.
and, to top it all off, we still need an elite young left winger.
Obviously the whole argument swings on Sutter actually acquiring someone worth a damn. Matt’s not saying “trade Phaneuf at all costs”. He’s saying “shop Phaneuf for a proven young star” (with the added caveat of "don’t get a jeans model)
Matt doesn’t want the Flames to get cheaper for the sake of it…he wants to move a chunk of dollars from the back-end to the front-end because, like me I suspect, he doesn’t think the Flames have the horses up front to hang with the big boys in the league.
I think I’m being deafened by my fury from last nights game, or not able to express myself. I’ll try this:
Phaneuf has trade market value due to his areas of skills and assets. BUT we need those skills and assets as well. So we have Phaneuf (maybe not my first choice, but he does give us those skills and assets) and we don’t have another. If we move them, like with Cammy, then we will need those next because there is a hole there.
What we have (and I like Sarich) is one too many Cory Sarich’s (or Regher’s, or Pardy’s) big boys with little offensive upside. So we should trade one of them. They just may not get us as much as Dion, but that’s speculation.
Clearly put. I disagree! My contention is that we in fact do not need Phaneuf’s skills and assets — at the price they are — because they are duplicated on the roster, AND, we certainly need a high-end forward. But I suspect the Sutters are closer to your thinking than mine, Lawrence.
Also, there is zero question that Phaneuf would bring a phenomenal return. This is why I think it’s a good idea, not because I want another Olli Jokinen. You get a really good player c/w the ability to pay him, OR, you get a really good package, with the ability to pay someone else.
Ok, well that makes more sense then because we see Phanuef in a different light. I would say (and if I were GM of the Flames only do this as a last, last, last resort) that right now the odd man out with also the most return value is Regehr. I see Jbo as a better more rounded Regehr who is much more coveted than Sarich and makes a pretty penny as well. I’m sure a Regehr+Dawes/GlenX combo could fetch a top star.
However, I would never trade Reggie…which is why I look down the depths to Sarich.
I totally don’t see Jbo as having nearly the same offensive upside/physicality as Phaneuf
It may turn out that J-Bo is not All That. But that particular bed is made. He’s here, and with a NTC.
Also, help me keep up here:
- JBo is a better more rounded Regehr
- Phaneuf has much more offensive upside/physicality than JBo
- Regehr has the most return value???
Nah. For some GM who needs to trade an elite player for some reason (Kovalchuk cause he can’t be signed, Spezza cause the Ottawa media and fans get sick of his face, Carter cause he’s not affordable, whatever speculation you like), Phaneuf will be an attractive return.
A. Yes
B. Yes, but much poorer defensively
C. Than Sarich, Pardy or another of the Flames stay-at-home defenders. That wasn’t first clear. Although other than Jbo, I wonder if Reggie couldn’t fetch nearly as much as Phaneuf…considering Dion isn’t universally liked.
Last, of course Phaneuf will be an attractive return, because few teams would have a young, big hitting offensive defenseman capable of scoring 20-25+ goals. If Phaneuf left, that would include the Flames.
I have absolutely no problem with a 20-22ish million dollar defense core considering 12 of the teams are within kicking range of that. A Sarich salary gone and we’re 10th in the league in spending with 3 potential team Canada D.
Hard to disagree with
The question is, what trade is there to be made. I agree with the sentiment that space needs to be made up front as well for whomever comes in. So that means the outgoing package is Phaneuf plus a forward. My preference would be to send out Jokinen or another centre, especially because the likely return is a centre and we are already deep there in my view.
The return? Would Lecavalier plus a draft pick do it? He is an ideal candidate to “buy low”. Spezza would also work, but I question whether Sutter would ever pick him up. What about Alex Frolov. There was some disgruntlement there earlier in the season, but I doubt that LA needs a defenceman.
If I could pick anyone in the league it would probably be Ryan Getzlaf. He fits the Sutter mould and would go great with Iggy. I just don’t see how to pry him out of Ana.
by CalTach on Nov 20, 2009 4:54 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Phaneuf
Vinny will be a Hab, via UFA route, asap, geh-ron-teed, and why does everyone want to ditch Dion, seems weird and unthankful, i think we should send Joker back to the desert, promote young Boyd, and swallow hard for a couple of months, but never trade #3, ever!
Who would you get back?
This whole thread is very interesting. And given B. Sutter’s comments about lack of leadership, it could mean that indeed, one of the leaders of the team are being shopped. What team needs an offensive defenseman with average defense? What should we get in return? I think if you shop Phaneuf, we can get top quality talent. Phaneuf is producing now and has upside. I’d want someone who is producing now and has the same upside in return, preferably as people have stated, a left winger.
From a “touchy-feely” point of view, trading Phaneuf would send a message to the rest of the team. All this talk of being too casual, well, a trade like this would demonstrate the Sutters are serious about establishing a more business-like environment.
It's a horrible idea
Never trade a player when his value is at a low ebb. Phaneuf was pretty lousy last year, but has since rebounded and has actually played a lot better this year. However, his reputation (and trade value) has not since rebounded. Trading him not virtually guarrantees the Flames will not get full value.
Phaneuf has been routinely posting highers Corsi’s than Bouwmeester over the past month and a half. Yes, it’s against weaker competition. No, he does not penatly kill. But the fact the Flames can put out two defensive pairings that are essentially the top line is a tremendous advantage. Willingly trading it away strikes me as foolish.
Phaneuf right now seems to me to be the Flames bellweather player. If he posts a positive Corsi, the Flames usually win. The Flames recent run was marked by huge Corsi numbers from #3. However, when he plays like he did last year, we get the Blackhawks game. Phaneuf is not Bouwmeester, but being able to play him on the #2 pairing is a huge advanatge for the Flames.
It’s almost impossible for the Flames to get that kind of value in return.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
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I thought he needed this year to see if he could rebound. If he can and provide value then the offensive numbers he is capable of getting and the improved defensive aspect of his game make his upside big and worth the dough. I think of a Chris Pronger type. Can hit, score and would play great D. I don’t see that happening. I think it is time to shop him. If they do I really hope it is quiet. If that leaked it could be chaos. Of course it only makes sense to do the deal if they get a VERY good package in return including a top 3-6 forward.
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